Toyota Supra Manual: Why it will be amazing at autocross

Supra 6MT will having a starting MSRP of $52,500
 

Despite the grammatical error this number sounds pretty amazing for a sports car in 2022. Are Toyota dealers selling these at MSRP or tacking on and extra thirty thousand because they can?

OHSCrifle said:

Supra 6MT will having a starting MSRP of $52,500
 

Despite the grammatical error this number sounds pretty amazing for a sports car in 2022. Are Toyota dealers selling these at MSRP or tacking on and extra thirty thousand because they can?

Holy cow... I spent less on my bloated PP GT which I bought at sticker.

These Supras had a pretty surprise showing at the 2022 One Lap of America with 4 competing.  The highest finishing was 7th (with the others finishing 12, 13, 50th out of 84) but they left a lot of cars in their wake most notably Caymans and many 911s, including multiple GT2s and GT3s

 the lack of a manual was still a sore spot with prospective customers as well as people who just liked to complain.

Never felt so seen in my entire life...

I've complained a lot of the Supra not being offered with a 6MT.

I'd still get it with the AT.

Unless we've traveled back in time twenty years, I'm pretty sure the platform is shared with the bmw z4, not the z3.

OHSCrifle said:

Supra 6MT will having a starting MSRP of $52,500
 

Despite the grammatical error this number sounds pretty amazing for a sports car in 2022. Are Toyota dealers selling these at MSRP or tacking on and extra thirty thousand because they can?

If you got arrested for being a good craftsman, would there be enough evidence to convict you?

Around me if a used one pops up it's still $65k. Are people having success ordering them from the dealer for MSRP?

If I had new Supra money this would make me much more likely to buy one...but I'd still be cross-shopping it with a used C7.

In reply to hunter47 :

and you wonder why we don't get manuals. If you don't buy it, they won't build it. 

I own the last BMW sports model that they refused to make with anything but a manual trans - the Z4M. Maybe they decided that any potential 'shiftless' customers didn't deserve one?

I like the ZF 6 speed, though I'm not sure that it is the same thing being used in the Toyota - Aisin make excellent gearboxes and that may well be what is being used.  It will be interesting to see how well they sell.

I applaud the availability of manual even of it is only a run of 500 cars.  I'm not sure that I could ever bring myself to buy an automatic sports car even though they can be demonstrably a bit quicker than the manual version.  The only automatics I have ever owned were either to cars or in my big Jensens which are GT cars rather than sports models.

Now the only thing to complain about is the BMW engine. 

Anyone in the earlier threads who stated they'd buy one if it came manual going to now buy a manual version?

In reply to wspohn :

I read an article that said it is a ZF box, just a different spec than supplied for BMW. Let me see if I can find it.. 

https://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/2023-toyota-supra-manual-first-drive-review-price-specs-info-driving

yupididit said:

Now the only thing to complain about is the BMW engine. 

Anyone in the earlier threads who stated they'd buy one if it came manual going to now buy a manual version?

While I never said I'd buy one, with a third pedal they're now on the list of potentials. 

The rest of this isn't really aimed at you, but you got me thinking. For fun I looked up what other high-powered manual RWD coupes you could get new for $60K.  I'm not going to consider the used market for this exercise because that's rabbit hole in which one will never return. 

It's basically just the American trio and it's cousin the Z4.  That'll change with the Nissan Z pretty soon, but performance comparisons haven't exactly been kind to it.  Hopefully the aftermarket will solve it's wayward suspension soon enough. Maybe one could argue for a base Cayman, but they have 100hp-ish less and start at $63,400 before Porsche's infamous options.  I'm probably forgetting about something, so feel free to swoop in and correct me.

I dunno. If you're not into the rather large American V8 options there really isn't much else right now that ticks all the boxes.  That said, I'd love to see the new manual Supra track tested against a 1SS 1LE ($48K), Mach 1 ($56K), and maybe a R/T Scat Pack Widebody ($53K).

But for all the similarity, the six-speed Supra’s dossier contains one different stat of note: a 71 mph second gear. And that’s with the stock rear 275/35R19 Michelin Pilot Super Sports. Throw a little more tire diameter on there, and you might never have to deal with the rev limiter on an autocross course again. The automatic-equipped Supra maxed out at only 54 mph on the stock tires.Toyota says the zero-to-60 sprint actually takes a few tenths longer with the manual box 

Why worry about the 2nd gear speed in the auto? It'll just shift to third when you hit 54.....What speed does 3rd gear get you to?

And, as noted, the auto will accelerate faster than the manual.

So why is the manual particularly good for autox? It may have pretty good ratios, but it will still lose to the auto box...  

In reply to gencollon :

I had a different BMW with a similar short 2nd gear and it was incredibly annoying.  Lots of autocross courses spend time going between 45 and 60 mph.  Instead of focusing on car placement, I was focusing on whether I needed to shift.  It doesn't help that modern bmws have so much sound deadening that it is hard to determine engine rpms by sound with a helmet on.

I said that the lack of a manual meant this car was a non-starter for me, as a Supra owner. The BMW bits are currently the deal breaker. If I see these cars hitting 100k, 200k with only minor issues and still holding up cosmetically as well as the last Supra did, I'll consider them having gone through trial by fire and welcome them into the family, perhaps formally.

For the money though, I'd rather have a GR Corolla and $20k for tires and whatever mods might tickle my fancy. Bet it's just as quick or quicker at autocross, provided the gearing is suitable.

Can confirm, having a second gear that runs to 70+ and a flexible powerband makes for a capable Supra. My 87 is weirdly enough similar in performance to the Mk5, apart from the newer car having the benefit of variable valve timing.

Finally!  Now this makes my to drive list.  

I don't know that Toyota does this, but BMW regulated their cars to a top speed of 155 mph.  Some of the Z4M owners just used 5th gear instead of 6th and managed around 170 but were hitting the 7900 red line when they did.

wspohn said:

I don't know that Toyota does this, but BMW regulated their cars to a top speed of 155 mph.  Some of the Z4M owners just used 5th gear instead of 6th and managed around 170 but were hitting the 7900 red line when they did.

I don't think that's top 100 in the vast majority of any new car buyers main concerns though. 

In reply to crankwalk (Forum Supporter) :

...you'd be surprised by a relatively large contingent of Supra owners then. I've only taken mine to about 150, but there are plenty others out there who have seen 200+ on runways around the country. Texas 2k used to be a Supra centric event. =)

In reply to ojannen :

I'm sure that a 2nd gear that's too short, and a 3rd gear that's too tall to work on an autoX course is slow and frustrating.... I doubt that the auto gearbox in the Supra has that problem. 

1st goes to ~ 32, 2nd goes to ~48, 3rd goes to ~77.... and it shifts between the gears almost instantly and without disrupting the chassis. The manual car will be fun and involving, but it won't beat the same car with the auto box where a stopwatch is involved- especially when it loses .2 seconds accelerating out of the gate. And if there ever is a tight hairpin on the course, the auto car will give you 2nd gear again, and make up more time over the manual box.

https://youtu.be/KHG054-Aw9U?t=15

te72 said:

In reply to crankwalk (Forum Supporter) :

...you'd be surprised by a relatively large contingent of Supra owners then. I've only taken mine to about 150, but there are plenty others out there who have seen 200+ on runways around the country. Texas 2k used to be a Supra centric event. =)

I'm a former Supra owner and literally none of the fast one I know care one bit about the stock ECUs limitations because any of them that will actually need to worry about getting close to those speeds have standalones and a big single.

This car's looks keep growing on me. That the latest version supposedly dynos at over 400hp to the wheels isn't unappealing either.

crankwalk (Forum Supporter) said:

te72 said:

In reply to crankwalk (Forum Supporter) :

...you'd be surprised by a relatively large contingent of Supra owners then. I've only taken mine to about 150, but there are plenty others out there who have seen 200+ on runways around the country. Texas 2k used to be a Supra centric event. =)

I'm a former Supra owner and literally none of the fast one I know care one bit about the stock ECUs limitations because any of them that will actually need to worry about getting close to those speeds have standalones and a big single.

You make a fair point. The cars could reach some impressive speeds on the stock setups, but you're right that the truly fast ones are modified well beyond what Toyota put into them.

Former owner huh? How do you get away from them? Ours just seem to keep multiplying... =P

In reply to te72 :

I bought a '94 TT with BPU+ upgrades but with stock twins. It was fast and comfortable but the values then (2006 ish) were on the rise so I sold it and continued on with other cars. In hindsight, I should have stashed it and put it on bring a trailer these days. I love mkivs and 1/2j swapped mkiiis but I think I appreciate them more from a far than owning one. So the mkv with a 6sp is awesome, and I'm glad Toyota/BMW is making it but I'll enjoy it from a distance.

In reply to crankwalk (Forum Supporter) :

You know you've been in the Supra game for a while when you call it BPU instead of FBO. Long live Supraforums!

fatallightning said:

In reply to crankwalk (Forum Supporter) :

You know you've been in the Supra game for a while when you call it BPU instead of FBO. Long live Supraforums!

HAHAHAHA I didn't even know the lingo has changed. I told on myself. Thanks for that laugh.

fatallightning said:

In reply to crankwalk (Forum Supporter) :

You know you've been in the Supra game for a while when you call it BPU instead of FBO. Long live Supraforums!

What is FBO? I've heard of BPU / APU and "you've really gotta knock it off with the mad scientist ideas dude" but FBO?

Also, Crankwalk, hindsight is quite a thing. I got into my first Mk3 in 2005. Have since owned a Mk1, Mk2, two other Mk3's, and my wife has a Mk4. Maybe someday down the road I'll consider adding a Mk5 to the history, but I'm certainly in no rush. Just swapped out some blown JIC coilovers on her car for fresh HKS Hipermax S coilovers, rides soooo much better, no surprise there.

te72 said:

fatallightning said:

In reply to crankwalk (Forum Supporter) :

You know you've been in the Supra game for a while when you call it BPU instead of FBO. Long live Supraforums!

What is FBO? I've heard of BPU / APU and "you've really gotta knock it off with the mad scientist ideas dude" but FBO?

 

Also, Crankwalk, hindsight is quite a thing. I got into my first Mk3 in 2005. Have since owned a Mk1, Mk2, two other Mk3's, and my wife has a Mk4. Maybe someday down the road I'll consider adding a Mk5 to the history, but I'm certainly in no rush. Just swapped out some blown JIC coilovers on her car for fresh HKS Hipermax S coilovers, rides soooo much better, no surprise there.

Full Bolt on?

In reply to crankwalk (Forum Supporter) :

Makes sense in this context I suppose, thanks. Learned something new today. =)

In reply to OHSCrifle :

I hope they sell a million of them so I can build a time attack full aero weapon gutted.

FBO is for BMWs. It's like showing off that you have done "everything"
 

BPU is for Supras. It's Basic Performance Upgrade because who in their right mind drives a stock Supra, they are all modded

The FD guys used BPU/BPU+/APU when they were new, too.

That always kinda bothered me because it is so subjective.  Pulling the engine, bridge porting it, and sticking a T88 on it is pretty basic.

I see a few at MSRP if you search Toyota.com for the 2023 A91 MT, and a few that say 'call dealer' so guessing they are the ones that want a premium.  Love the CU Later Gray exterior, not sure on the Hazelnut interior.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

That always kinda bothered me because it is so subjective.

I used to tell people at meets that my BMW had full bolt ons. Yes, the new engine bolted right in .

buzzboy said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

That always kinda bothered me because it is so subjective.

I used to tell people at meets that my BMW had full bolt ons. Yes, the new engine bolted right in .

A turbo Miata is "a little intake and exhaust work" :)

mr2peak said:

BPU is for Supras. It's Basic Performance Upgrade because who in their right mind drives a stock Supra, they are all modded

My Mk2 was stock apart from the 6M swap some previous owner had done, it was a fine car. My first Mk3 was stock too, apart from the suspension and minor stereo upgrades.

Granted, those were my NA cars. Turbo cars though... I mean, it's hard not to modify them when a few pipe changes picks up an extra 20-30% power output. Her Mk4 puts down 380whp on an Aristo swap with stock ecu, stock fuel system, stock turbos, stock engine. Not bad for something that was rated at 280hp to start. =P

te72 said:

I said that the lack of a manual meant this car was a non-starter for me, as a Supra owner. The BMW bits are currently the deal breaker. If I see these cars hitting 100k, 200k with only minor issues and still holding up cosmetically as well as the last Supra did, I'll consider them having gone through trial by fire and welcome them into the family, perhaps formally.

 

For the money though, I'd rather have a GR Corolla and $20k for tires and whatever mods might tickle my fancy. Bet it's just as quick or quicker at autocross, provided the gearing is suitable.

 

Can confirm, having a second gear that runs to 70+ and a flexible powerband makes for a capable Supra. My 87 is weirdly enough similar in performance to the Mk5, apart from the newer car having the benefit of variable valve timing.

I don't think Toyota (or BMW if it makes you feel better or worse?) cares if you consider the MKV a "real" Supra because it's not up to you. It's a Supra. They're selling well, they've proved themselves monsters on track, and now, it comes with a manual. There will never be a 3JZ; so, just be happy they made a fantastic Supra and not whatever became of the Mitsubishi Evo...

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

buzzboy said:

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

That always kinda bothered me because it is so subjective.

I used to tell people at meets that my BMW had full bolt ons. Yes, the new engine bolted right in .

A turbo Miata is "a little intake and exhaust work" :)

 

An LS1 powered one is stock with minor bolt ons.  It's all too subjective.  

In reply to 350z247 :

Fair enough, except it is, to a degree, up to people like me, who have owned 7 Supras in the last couple decades. I vote with my dollars, and when I saw the FT-1 concept at Supras in Vegas 2015, I said right then and there, "I will buy one of these if they don't screw it up."

Guess what? They screwed it up.

Can confirm though, they are indeed monsters on the track, but at the end of the day, I suspect they won't be that for terribly wrong before the myriad of electrical gremlins and parts failures rear their heads.

In reply to te72 :

Except M3s, M4s, M2s, and to a less common but all the more special extent, M5s have been filling up track weekends for decades. Are they infallible? No, but all cars eventually break something on track. People act like the MkIII and MkIV Supras are the greatest cars ever made; when, in reality, they are just really good cars built during a unique time when Japan could spend absurd amounts of money unnecessarily overbuilding their engines. A 300hp engine does not need to be able to withstand 1000hp; that's wasteful and stupid on the part of the manufacturer.  Please continue to hate on an amazing car for illogical reasons and watch Toyota never make a single fun car ever again. The fact they made a sports car at all at a time when the entire market is jumping on the electric bandwagon is a miracle, but God forbid they ask the Kings of the Straight Six for some help. I don't see Aston Martin fans blowing up forums over their now AMG sourced V8s.

yupididit said:

Now the only thing to complain about is the BMW engine. 

Anyone in the earlier threads who stated they'd buy one if it came manual going to now buy a manual version?

 

What's to complain about with B58?

In reply to 350z247 :

Glad you can appreciate the economic climate these cars were developed in. I wouldn't call overbuilding an engine wasteful though. Ever heard the theory that if you want a 500hp engine to be reliable, build it to make 1000hp? I used to assume it was that Toyota didn't have the luxury of FEA back in the 80's when the JZ (and other engines of that era that are also surprisingly stout) were developed, but after seeing what the G16 has been putting out, I think it's just the Toyota way to overbuild their enthusiast engines.

When reliability is who you are, at your core, it benefits those of us who like to tinker. I don't think BMW has ever had that mindset, as evidenced by the strange things that seem to plague their cars shortly after the warranty expires. I mean, a 300k Toyota is no strange thing. I don't think many of us have come across many 300k BMW's, have we?

As for calling them the Kings of the Straight Six, come on now. GM, Dodge, and Ford have all made more inline 6's than BMW, though I'd say BMW did some great work on the old S-series engines in the E36/46. I recall a time when HPF was making turbo setups for those cars and making for quite the rivaly with the Mk4 guys.

I can't speak for the Aston Martin folks, but I do find it quite telling that the GR Corolla has made a point to make you notice that the car is "All Toyota". I wouldn't say it's an apology, but... it sure feels that way. =P

In reply to te72 :

They are the Kings of the Straight Six not just because of sheer volume, but the quality of the engines. From the M1's M88/1 to the current S58 which makes as much power as the V10 in my M5, they have made more great straight sixes than any other car company: M88 (M1), M20 (E30 325i), S38 (E28/E34 M5), S50 (E36 M3), S54 (E46 M3), M54 (E39 530i/E46 330i), N54 (E90 335i/1 Series M), S55 (F80 M3), B58 (M340i/Supra), and S58 (G80 M3). Most companies used them as base engines for their mundane cars before completely giving up on them in the 70s and 80s for V6s, notable performance exceptions being Toyota (3 great engines), Nissan (2), Mercedes (2), Ford Australia (1), TVR (1; I wish we got these), Volvo (1), Aston Martin (1), Jaguar (1 but they used it for like 45 years so that's impressive), and Cummins (basically all of them). Picking the "best" straight six is always going to depend on what your value from an engine, but BMW has embraced the straight six the same way Porsche has the flat six or Subaru the flat 4. It's just their thing.

Volvo had several straight sixes, including a VWAG six.  The last one was garbage made to fit where an inline five fit... Toyota had a good six that was so close a copy of a Chevy engine that some gaskets interchanged. No word if Toyota kept the splash oiling system.

The main issue with inline sixes is the long ropy crankshaft and the harmonics thereof, and the cooling system suffers the longer the engine is.  BMW did an end run around the cooling problems with the M1's engine by feeding the coolant into the engine via manifold along the exhaust ports, with a width wise coolant flow. Just like a '55 Pontiac V8.

In reply to 350z247 :

You're a fellow fan of history, I can appreciate that. I can respect that BMW made engines that were noteworthy for the performance, but I respect durability and longevity more. You did happen to leave out all the variants of GM inline 6, as well as the Dodge and Ford variants, which can all be made to put out respectable numbers, considering their limitations in head design.

When you can show me a BMW that has made it to 200k with only a water pump and spark plug change in all that time, let me know. Or one that someone doubled the output without significantly shortening the life of it. Like you said, what you value in engines is different. Supras are made to be tinkered with, and I don't think the Mk5's are going to cope with the tinkering lifestyle to the same degree. You said there's never going to be a 3JZ, but I'm guessing you didn't know that you can buy billet JZ blocks, and heads that have dual vvti *and* vtec for the JZ... Granted, it's money, yeah, but little repairs add up to a lot eventually too, and I would assume BMW shop rates are just as high as anyone else.

te72 said:

In reply to 350z247 :

Glad you can appreciate the economic climate these cars were developed in. I wouldn't call overbuilding an engine wasteful though. Ever heard the theory that if you want a 500hp engine to be reliable, build it to make 1000hp? I used to assume it was that Toyota didn't have the luxury of FEA back in the 80's when the JZ (and other engines of that era that are also surprisingly stout) were developed, but after seeing what the G16 has been putting out, I think it's just the Toyota way to overbuild their enthusiast engines.

 

When reliability is who you are, at your core, it benefits those of us who like to tinker. I don't think BMW has ever had that mindset, as evidenced by the strange things that seem to plague their cars shortly after the warranty expires. I mean, a 300k Toyota is no strange thing. I don't think many of us have come across many 300k BMW's, have we?

 

As for calling them the Kings of the Straight Six, come on now. GM, Dodge, and Ford have all made more inline 6's than BMW, though I'd say BMW did some great work on the old S-series engines in the E36/46. I recall a time when HPF was making turbo setups for those cars and making for quite the rivaly with the Mk4 guys.

 

I can't speak for the Aston Martin folks, but I do find it quite telling that the GR Corolla has made a point to make you notice that the car is "All Toyota". I wouldn't say it's an apology, but... it sure feels that way. =P

BMW I6s were incredibly stout until the E46 era. A byproduct of tiny bearings from the bore spacing of a fuel efficient engine designed to rev to 4500 in the early 80s, to going to 2000 and making one rev past 8k with more than the double the power. 

The old 3.5 M30 engines had no problem holding well past 500whp with nothing more than ARP headstuds and a big ol turbo. 

Mostly, a heavily overbuilt engine is the result of poor engineering.  If you have a 300hp engine that is reliable to 1000, that probably just means your engineers cheaped out on stress analysis or are using hand me down parts from an existing engine.

Chrysler was testing the original B engines in the 50s on by feeding them 60psi of shop air (!) and letting 'em bellow on the dyno for a few hours.   They couldn't go 100k before needing at least one overhaul, though, and often the blocks would have to be scrapped because the main webs cracked.

In reply to z31maniac :

I'm curious what happened to BMW. They were fairly reliable through the E36 era, I will acknowledge that, but I wasn't sure where the point was that things started going south for longevity. It always seemed to me that the engines were fairly solid, but in more recent years the stuff attached to the engine is the cause of the headaches. Planned obsolecense?

Pete, I suspect that the silly degree of stoutness of the JZ engines was a byproduct of Toyota's rivalry with Nissan on the track. Kinda the old Chevy approach of building a race engine for the street, for homologation purposes. "It only makes 290hp" Chevy said... "It only makes 276hp" Toyota said...

Feeding an engine shop air sounds pretty fun though. There's a place that sells setups to run compressed air injection as a means to feed a Chevy engine for drag purposes. Outputs were quite impressive.