I admire the Nelsons who do a lot of testing on both dyno and track. They have a U Tube channel that is both interesting and informative. Clearly that is helpful to them.
Is there a curve? I mean 1 test event will get you 10%? So 9 tests will get you 90%?
Following their lead perhaps the car can improve enough to do well?
FWIW, any quasi-locals looking for a pre-GRM $2k event test oppurtunity, Jax Solo (SCCA Buccaneer Region South) will be holding an autocross event at The FIRM the weekend before (Oct 15)... I will setup an "GRM $2k" class so that those competitors run together. Will also look at trying to get yall more runs, with some time between for adjustments (or engine swaps - LOL)...
I test as much as time and money allow. It mostly pays dividends in reliability and consistency, which translates to a higher finish.
I e broken a LOT of stuff in testing, and still broken every year at the challenge in some form. I can only imagine how bad it would be without the testing.
I do fine tune the package sone during testing as well, which directly translates to faster, but not nearly as much as reliability.
What is this 'testing' of which you speak? Wouldn't this require having a completed build prior to the event??
In reply to gumby :
Guilty. The first few years I often finished assembly at the track. But once I started testing my engines on the dyno before the actual race. I went there confident what the car would perform like. I was no longer flailing to tune the engine and practice for the race during the same session.
Chassis dyno's didn't really exist and only a few engine builders dyno tuned the engine prior to installation
Testing...
You mean the first three autocross runs?
gumby said:What is this 'testing' of which you speak? Wouldn't this require having a completed build prior to the event??
I mean, it made it mostly around the block once. That's testing right? Oh and it blew hose on the dyno. More testing. Dude, we over tested it
From what I saw at the event testing can absolutely move somebody up a number of places, particularly in mid-pack.
Lots of people at the event are builders so they're slower to get the car on the track.
The only car I've ever put a lot of effort into testing gave me a podium finish.
I would bet that the top 3 finishers for the last 5 years all spent some effort testing. Probably much more than that.
There isn't any question that testing defines the winners. And there isn't any question that the majority of people spend very little time testing.
Datsaniti's first autocross run was the most it had ever driven up to that point. It went poorly, and I DNF'd like half my runs.
Over the next year I went to 5 or 6 autocrosses, 3 drag strip test-n-tunes, and a few hundred street miles of driving. I found a ton of problems to fix, improvements to make, nitrous jet combos to test. They call that "sorting". I wouldn't have won without all that sorting.
Then Gumby comes out here, barely finished the build in time, hell they hit a dyno on the way to the Challenge. And he wins it, handily! Just goes to show how good of a builder he is.
maschinenbau said:Then Gumby comes out here, barely finished the build in time, hell they hit a dyno on the way to the Challenge. And he wins it, handily! Just goes to show how good of a builder he is.
This. Try watching him work in his shop for 11 months. I've never felt so dumb. OK, that's not true either.
Usually running them on to the trailer. There have been times we were adjusting cars on the trailer in the hotel parking lot. The last time that happened we finished third overall.
maschinenbau said:Over the next year I went to 5 or 6 autocrosses, 3 drag strip test-n-tunes, and a few hundred street miles of driving. I found a ton of problems to fix, improvements to make, nitrous jet combos to test. They call that "sorting". I wouldn't have won without all that sorting.
I hope Brad gets a similar amount of sorting this year.
At the current rate of my build...pulling it onto the trailer...if I'm lucky.
Living local to the challenge means you can hold out hope that the car will be ready-all the way up until several hours after the autocross starts. The hotel check in in the evening before is always in the way of trying to finish the car, and I live less than 2 miles from the hotel. So, no-no testing.
The year i brought the silver 240 , the engine was still on the stand 3 days before I left. I drove it down from Indianapolis.
If the engine runs and makes noise it seems that's enough. Brakes are whatever works, handling is whatever is scraped together.
Yet we all know that sorting equals speed. Plus parts not on the car don't count against the budget.
bobzilla said:gumby said:What is this 'testing' of which you speak? Wouldn't this require having a completed build prior to the event??
I mean, it made it mostly around the block once. That's testing right? Oh and it blew hose on the dyno. More testing. Dude, we over tested it
This place really is FSAE for adults.
In reply to frenchyd :
I wouldn't put it like that. I'd say that the top teams that don't get to test are good enough in their building skills to show up with a strong car. Most of us actually run great brakes since OEM brakes are budget exempt. But you knew that right?
Stampie said:In reply to frenchyd :
I wouldn't put it like that. I'd say that the top teams that don't get to test are good enough in their building skills to show up with a strong car. Most of us actually run great brakes since OEM brakes are budget exempt. But you knew that right?
You do know I've been building winning race cars for 40 years professionally don't you?
Now I freely admit I know nothing about drag racing nor autocross. But I'll learn some on test and tuning of the XJS And I'll take that same car to the autocross and track nights prior to unleashing it for the guys to bring down to you.
What I was really looking for when I started this was to see if someone had an organized system of doing that rather than the test and chase your tail method I foresee.
There is a Thursday car show at the local drive in and so as long as it's got a set of plates on it they kind of look the other way regarding noise. ( as long as you're not being a jerk ) That's going to be the sort of testing I'm planning on.
Oh with regard OEM brakes, yes I was aware. I'm also aware of the variety of OEM brakes available and how to not only balance them but select the best pad.
The later is going to be a difficult issue. The ultimate goal is to race wheel to wheel at the most demanding race track in America on Brakes. A short less than 1 minute autocross simply won't put any real heat in compared to a 4 mile track where speeds might approach 170 three times with 14 corners.
In reply to frenchyd :
You might want to read that brake rule a little better. This is normally where you get your panties in a wad but anyways ... you have a way of reading the Challenge rules and misunderstanding them always to your advantage. I can't remember once you misstating a rule to your disadvantage. Almost seems like you do it on purpose. Hence why I hope the guys bringing it down read the rules correctly and my check of your budget is all ice cream and cookies.
In reply to frenchyd :
Make a plan, execute the plan, take lots of notes, review results, make changes and repeat.
A lot of people argue that changes should be made in isolation so the effects are clear. This logic is helpful to a degree but you miss out on an understanding of the interactions between variables which can actually be more important than the primary effects of individual variables.
And yes, getting some miles on the car before hand helps a lot if you pay attention to what the car is trying to tell you.
In reply to Stampie :
You do realize that how the guys do is up to them not me? I only want to go wheel to wheel.
I'm too old to get much out of drag racing which if I was interested in it I would have done it more than once in the 50 some years I've been racing. Same with autocross.
So if we have to make a decision that effects preparation for Elkhart Lake or The challenge you do know where the decision is going to be don't you?
See in all those years I've never even tried to trash talk others. So I'm no good at it. I frankly don't think gentlemen should but you continue to do whatever you feel like.
bigben said:In reply to frenchyd :
Make a plan, execute the plan, take lots of notes, review results, make changes and repeat.
A lot of people argue that changes should be made in isolation so the effects are clear. This logic is helpful to a degree but you miss out on an understanding of the interactions between variables which can actually be more important than the primary effects of individual variables.
And yes, getting some miles on the car before hand helps a lot if you pay attention to what the car is trying to tell you.
That sentence, " interaction between the variable" Tells me you have some experience racing.
How do you compromise between the two timed events? Focus on one, compromise between them both?
What sort of top speed is achieved in the autocross track? And how much room will a big car like the Jaguar have? Is it tight enough that the car will be forced to tip toe through the cones? Or can a little muscle be applied to get the back end around to properly attack the cones?
I understand that a big bulky car will have a real difficult time achieving anywhere near the 9 second times the Nelsons turn. With a dry weight around 2500 pounds and a horsepower around 600 will I even be within a few seconds?
In reply to frenchyd :
So what you're saying is you didn't read the brake rule again.
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