Safety features that don’t improve speed.

Things like Kill switches accessible to safety crew, fuel cells, fire systems in leu of fire extinguisher, 

Are those all budget exempt or will they be added to your budget?  
  In other words if it's already on a race car, or put on before the challenge will they be counted?  

In reply to frenchyd :

Since it appears that you haven't read them at all here is a link to the rules.

https://2000challenge.com/rules

In reply to Stampie :

Read it twice. Doesn't answer the questions asked. 
 For example you say you have to have a kill switch if the battery is moved.  Stock XJS is in the trunk. If I add a kill switch to that?  Does that count? 
   Same thing,  a fire extinguisher is required but no mention of fire system.  
    Frankly you forget some of us have had a lot of experience  reading rules and finding the gray areas.  
 If you're going to enforce rules as you see fit you should tell that to entrants. 
 Example. I'll be running a pair of turbo's. Normally turbo's require  a boost valve. But if the turbo's don't reach excessive pressure  they won't be needed. So their cost won't be added. But to make that decision they need to be present during testing. 

In reply to frenchyd :

It answers it right at the beginning of the budget exemption list.

If something is not listed as budget exempt in the $2000 Challenge rules, it is not exempt. These items are budget exempt:

Let's start with why the battery was relocated? Was that facilitate clearance for something else, ease of service or weight balance? Because if so the thread title is a fallacy, as is it would be to create a performance advantage. 

brakes don't make you go faster, they only slow you down.

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

Let's start with why the battery was relocated? Was that facilitate clearance for something else, ease of service or weight balance? Because if so the thread title is a fallacy, as is it would be to create a performance advantage. 

Battery was not relocated. That's where they are stock on all Jaguar XJS.  Kill switches are a safety item. since it doesn't give a performance  advantage. If Only a safety advantage  it should be neutral.  
 same with a fuel cell or  fire suppression system.  
 Any item that adds safety without  a performance advantage.  
   I'm not in favor of mandating extra safety equipment. But if someone wants them  why not treat it just like a SFI flywheel or harmonic damper ?  
  Just playing the devils advocate here.

         Wouldn't there be a potential liability issue if entrants were penalized ( cost added to build)  if they aren't allowed while some other safety feature was allowed budget exempt?  

In reply to frenchyd :

Maybe you should actually compete in the Challenge before you start arguing that you don't like the rules. 

Stampie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Maybe you should actually compete in the Challenge before you start arguing that you don't like the rules. 

That but also...

It goes continually misunderstood, the NHRA rules allow you to race, the Challenge rules allow you to win. 

Gainsville Raceway is an NHRA national track, if they want the annual event that pays all their bills they have to make the NHRA happy, part of that is anything that goes on at the track has to abide by NHRA rules. The need for a battery cut-off IF the battery was relocated is an NHRA rule. The fact that it has to be on your build sheet is a Challenge rule. 

Is a battery cut off a performance advantage well no not exactly but is the possibility of relocating the battery a performance advantage, in my car, absolutely so therefore it's reasonable that there is a cost. 

Byrneon27 said:

Stampie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Maybe you should actually compete in the Challenge before you start arguing that you don't like the rules. 

That but also...

 

It goes continually misunderstood, the NHRA rules allow you to race, the Challenge rules allow you to win. 

Gainsville Raceway is an NHRA national track, if they want the annual event that pays all their bills they have to make the NHRA happy, part of that is anything that goes on at the track has to abide by NHRA rules. The need for a battery cut-off IF the battery was relocated is an NHRA rule. The fact that it has to be on your build sheet is a Challenge rule. 

Is a battery cut off a performance advantage well no not exactly but is the possibility of relocating the battery a performance advantage, in my car, absolutely so therefore it's reasonable that there is a cost. 

Again. The battery is still in the stock location. The place Jaguar originally built it.    
 For added safety  I want a kill switch  so am I required to to add that to my build cost?  Stampie  says yes.     
 The rules say you don't need it if it's in the stock location. Which I've repeatedly said it is.  
   But if I choose to be safer  why isn't that treated like SFI stuff and exempt ?  
   I understand all about the NHRA requirements.   But NHRA does not require cars to cost under $2000 

  Challenge does.   So if I go above and beyond what NHRA requires  why isn't that treated like SFI stuff is for the challenge. 
  The challenge rules say I can replace a stock flywheel,  ATF plate,   or Harmonic damper  with the proper SFI without a budget hit.  They don't add performance  just like a fuel cell, fire suppression system, or Kill switch. 

In reply to frenchyd :

You want some cheese to go with that whine?     

In reply to frenchyd :

You are free to put anything you want on your car. It goes in your budget, with the exception of only a few things that are specifically excluded. 
 

If you want a fantastic audio system, feel free. Put it in your budget. If it's on the car, it's in the budget. 
 

There is nothing stopping you from adding any device you consider a good choice for safety reasons. Put it in the budget. 

In reply to frenchyd :

The reason the SFI flywheels, dampeners, etc were added to the exclusion list is because they are required by the NHRA.  The powers that be decided they should not hit the budget (but if your build sheet doesn't show that you have them when required, you can be disqualified from competition per the NHRA rules)

NHRA does not require a kill switch if the battery has not been relocated. 

In reply to frenchyd :

$2000 is what MAKES it a challenge. Wouldn't be much of a challenge if the budget was unlimited, would it?

frenchyd said:

Byrneon27 said:

Stampie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Maybe you should actually compete in the Challenge before you start arguing that you don't like the rules. 

That but also...

 

It goes continually misunderstood, the NHRA rules allow you to race, the Challenge rules allow you to win. 

Gainsville Raceway is an NHRA national track, if they want the annual event that pays all their bills they have to make the NHRA happy, part of that is anything that goes on at the track has to abide by NHRA rules. The need for a battery cut-off IF the battery was relocated is an NHRA rule. The fact that it has to be on your build sheet is a Challenge rule. 

Is a battery cut off a performance advantage well no not exactly but is the possibility of relocating the battery a performance advantage, in my car, absolutely so therefore it's reasonable that there is a cost. 

Again. The battery is still in the stock location. The place Jaguar originally built it.    
 For added safety  I want a kill switch  so am I required to to add that to my build cost?  Stampie  says yes.     
 The rules say you don't need it if it's in the stock location. Which I've repeatedly said it is.  
   But if I choose to be safer  why isn't that treated like SFI stuff and exempt ?  
   I understand all about the NHRA requirements.   But NHRA does not require cars to cost under $2000 

  Challenge does.   So if I go above and beyond what NHRA requires  why isn't that treated like SFI stuff is for the challenge. 
  The challenge rules say I can replace a stock flywheel,  ATF plate,   or Harmonic damper  with the proper SFI without a budget hit.  They don't add performance  just like a fuel cell, fire suppression system, or Kill switch. 

Ok am going to start calling out your mistruths.

No where have I said "yes" that something is or isn't in budget to you. I have requested many times that you read the rules and pointed out specific rules that you need to reread because you are misstating them.   If anything I'll quote a rule directly but I try not to do it with you because I think you're just being lazy or want the convenient excuse of "Stampie said so."

If you don't think a SFI harmonic damper or flywheel can't add performance then you haven't learned E36 M3 in your 40 years of professional racing.

And you talk of how good you are at finding gray areas. You can't even read the rules properly much less find ways to use them to your advantage.

Do we as a group appreciate how much booze is going to be necessary to get through this year? 

In reply to Byrneon27 :

Your first one is on me. I'll bring a special bottle.

In reply to Stampie :

Promise to hit me in the head with it if this continues? 

In reply to Byrneon27 :

I promise if you drink the whole bottle you won't remember this conversation.

Byrneon27 said:

Do we as a group appreciate how much booze is going to be necessary to get through this year? 

As frenchyd has stated thousands of times, he has no interest in the challenge, (none of it is racing he likes) never has, and has stated that he never will. He has no plans to ever come to a challenge. So these are not questions that will be relevant at the challenge itself. 
 

In reply to 03Panther :

Yet he chooses to waste hours of our time asking questions about rules that he can very well read himself.

In reply to Stampie :

Yet, many, like myself get drawn into his plan, 'cause we just can't help ourselves. 
Ron White said:

"I had the right to remain silent... I just didn't have the ability..."

gets me in trouble all the time. 

In reply to 03Panther :

I've disengaged from him except when he starts his misinformation about the Challenge.  I don't care about his delusions of grander and old racing stories because his falsehoods take away from his stories.  Hard to know what is true and what is an old man's dreams.

I can tell he has a lot of knowledge, but then in the middle, he makes stuff up. If he'd just stick with actual facts, I know he has a lot to offer. But he makes it clear the challenge is beneath him, and then nit picks rules of an event he has no intentions of attending. I don't get it. 

In reply to 03Panther :

Used to work with this guy lets call him "the defendant" who knew a lot of stuff too, trouble was all of it was pretty much wrong. 

Not having the ability to remain silent has inspired most of the interesting things that have happened in my life, yall are in good company