Safety features that don’t improve speed.

frenchyd said:

SV reX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I mentioned NHRA rules about scattershields.  I didn't say anything about battery relocation. 
 

You are describing a car that can run 10's. If you cross that threshold, there are a LOT of things required which will have to be in your budget.

 To go faster than 10.00, you have to have a full 10 point roll cage and must have it certified/inspected by the NHRA, window net, all SFI stuff, scattershield on the tranny, SFI balancer, flywheel/flexplate, battery cutoff (if mounted in the rear), drive shaft loops, rear end clips, among other things  

These things are ALL easier and cheaper with a Chevy than a Jag.

 

You will also need a full fire suite with gloves, shoes, etc... neck collar, NHRA license, etc. These things are not in your budget (they are not on the car), but they ARE required. 

But I'm sure you already knew this, since you are reading rules so carefully. 

Hmm we have a 10 point cage, I haven't had it inspected.  But there is plenty of time. 
 I've gotta have a fire suit helmet etc.  to race vintage.  No I don't need a kill switch if the battery is in the original location (which happens to be in the rear  on Jaguar XJS). But I will have one.  I'll need most of the things you mentioned  for Vintage racing as well so it's not a problem.  
and as for clips? Only certain rear ends need those. 
    Luckily all the way up here in the frozen tundra we have NHRA.    A guy I used to work with is an  inspector.   As we start going that fast  during various test and tunes I'll invite him back over. 

I took a quick look at your cage last night.  Like less than 30 seconds quick.  Said nope that's not to NHRA spec.

Ok I'm going to be very clear here.

The Challenge rules that you claim to have read state that NHRA safety rules apply.

With your 40 years of professional racing experience you should know that you build a cage to meet the rules spec of the event you are planning to run in.

If you think that your cage will meet NHRA specs then you then either one of two things are possible.

One you have no clue wtf you're talking about.

Two you are a bullE36 M3 artist just looking for attention.

You tell me what you are.

This thread is comical.  
I kind of hope this Jag makes it down and we get to meet and talk to Jeff and Erik.  I bet they have some interesting stories. 
 
hopefully they'll be able to find a truck and trailer to get it to the Challenge. 

I hope Frenchy's XJS goes to the challenge and lays waste to the competition. That would be fun. 

Seriously though, Frenchy did have some cool racing feats back in the day if you Google his first and last name. 

I don't understand how he keeps getting y'all after all these years. 

You do not read what I've said any better than you pretend to read the rules. 
I never said you plan to beat the Nelson's. I said you have claimed your $500 jag can beat a chebby built to challenge rules. You have said THAT too many times to count. Specifically to Stampie, about bbc.  Fact. No one thinks a $500 jag can do that. (Prolly could have in '60s dollars, but I assume you're aware that the '60s are over)
I never said anything about you using the words autocross or drags are bad. Do not put words in my mouth.  
Fact you have stated OFTEN that you have absolutely NO interest in either, and have NO interest in building a car for the challenge, or EVER attending one

About a year ago, you changed your mind, started building one - sorta - and got a team. Started asking reasonable questions, and I CAN show where I supported ya when others did not. 
Since then each question, when answered in a way you do not like, you have gotten more and more whiny, confrontational, and insulting, to rules made for an event you MANY TIMES said you have no interest in. Yes. I consider that rude, since it's done on THEIR forum. Of course, it seems you are worse when in your cupps deeply, so maybe you just don't remember being that azz hat after you sober up. If so, that's not really an excuse. 

In reply to yupididit :

I don't know his first or last name. I do know he did a lot of very cool stuff, and knows a lot. That's why he frustrates me. 
Claims he too old to figure out how to cut and paste. Cannot use the reply to or quote buttons on this forum correctly. This would imply an IQ in the double digits. And yet, it obviously he's not that dumb. My dad, born in 1929, could do that much with  a computer. 
Yet in other posts, he has bragged about company's that sent him to school for computers... just doesn't add up. 
Yes, we have wasted a lot of bandwidth here... but better than tying up someone's legit post, when he started games on theirs!!!

In reply to 03Panther :

I drink very rarely. Then only a glass of wine or an aperitif.  So you're wrong on that speculation.  
  As far as my computer skills. Or properly a lack of them.  Early on I got a computer.    I figured I could teach myself like so many things in my life.     I finally figured out how to play some card games.   Girls grew up and daddy bought them theirs. But they were too busy to teach their dad anything.  
After my late wife discovered there wasn't going to be a cure for her cancer she taught me how to go on line  to dating sites. My first internet connection. 
  Yes, I met my current wife on line.  
  I don't remember how I found GRM. But I was on it for a while, someone started abusing me and I used profanity and was bounced for a month. 
         So to answer I have almost no computer skills. I've had courses. And passed them but just like the French I took in high school, college, and post grad. I can't speak French.  

   To briefly repeat. I will not be going there.

However the Jag. will go. Jeff and or Erick. Will take it down and I hope it does very well I'll even lend them my truck and a trailer to put it in. 
    I do hope it beats that Big Block Chevy.  I think it will.  A stock big block won't beat a stock V12. Mine will be stock, unopened even.  maybe regrind the cams if there is room in the budget. The hop up will be those two cheap turbo's
 No it can't beat the Nelsons. They are too far ahead of me.  Actual performance ? We'll see this summer at test and tune at the drag strip.  Then do a few Track Nights. 
      
     You are correct I don't care to autocross or drag race. like I said my interest is wheel to wheel vintage racing.  But that isn't saying the hobby is bad  or beneath me.  
    I did defend the V12 against those who bad mouthed it. The stick a Chevy in it guys. 
We are building the Jag and it will be under the $2000 rules. Don't think for a second that's all it will cost.  
  For example dyno time doesn't count but it sure costs. Nor does a set of tires, again those dollars come out of my pocket.  Etc etc etc.   the Nelsons figure about $2000 doesn't count  I think a serious effort would cost even more   That doesn't count on the budget.  It's only what's on the car that counts, not the stuff you tried and didn't use.  For example I could go several sizes larger and just use what works best  ( can't afford to do that)  try several sets of tires and just use the fastest .  

  Instead of trying to figure things out suddenly everyone is thinking I'm  cheating.  No you can't move your battery without a kill switch.  Except those rules everyone assumes I didn't read say if the battery is where the factory installed it you don't need a kill switch.   Not one person said, "you mean you want to do something you're not required to do"?  I'll bet I wrote something to the effect of factory location 5-6 times maybe more. 
      
  Now I have tried to respond nicely to the many many repeated errors and assumptions.  Just go back and read all the times I repeated stock location.   

yupididit said:

I bet hope Frenchy's XJS goes to the challenge and lays waste to the competition. That would be fun. 

Seriously though, Frenchy did have some cool racing feats back in the day if you Google his first and last name. 

I don't understand how he keeps getting y'all after all these years. 

I'm honestly not trying to egg anyone on.  I just try to correct the mistakes. 
Thank you.  That was very kind.   But doing well is the best I can reasonably expect. The Nelsons are simply way ahead.    They deserve their success. 

Lof8 - Andy said:

This thread is comical.  
I kind of hope this Jag makes it down and we get to meet and talk to Jeff and Erik.  I bet they have some interesting stories. 
 
hopefully they'll be able to find a truck and trailer to get it to the Challenge. 

They can take my truck and a buddy has one of the trailers I built and he will lend it to me for them to use. 

Stampie said:

frenchyd said:

SV reX said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I mentioned NHRA rules about scattershields.  I didn't say anything about battery relocation. 
 

You are describing a car that can run 10's. If you cross that threshold, there are a LOT of things required which will have to be in your budget.

 To go faster than 10.00, you have to have a full 10 point roll cage and must have it certified/inspected by the NHRA, window net, all SFI stuff, scattershield on the tranny, SFI balancer, flywheel/flexplate, battery cutoff (if mounted in the rear), drive shaft loops, rear end clips, among other things  

These things are ALL easier and cheaper with a Chevy than a Jag.

 

You will also need a full fire suite with gloves, shoes, etc... neck collar, NHRA license, etc. These things are not in your budget (they are not on the car), but they ARE required. 

But I'm sure you already knew this, since you are reading rules so carefully. 

Hmm we have a 10 point cage, I haven't had it inspected.  But there is plenty of time. 
 I've gotta have a fire suit helmet etc.  to race vintage.  No I don't need a kill switch if the battery is in the original location (which happens to be in the rear  on Jaguar XJS). But I will have one.  I'll need most of the things you mentioned  for Vintage racing as well so it's not a problem.  
and as for clips? Only certain rear ends need those. 
    Luckily all the way up here in the frozen tundra we have NHRA.    A guy I used to work with is an  inspector.   As we start going that fast  during various test and tunes I'll invite him back over. 

I took a quick look at your cage last night.  Like less than 30 seconds quick.  Said nope that's not to NHRA spec.

Ok I'm going to be very clear here.

The Challenge rules that you claim to have read state that NHRA safety rules apply.

With your 40 years of professional racing experience you should know that you build a cage to meet the rules spec of the event you are planning to run in.

If you think that your cage will meet NHRA specs then you then either one of two things are possible.

One you have no clue wtf you're talking about.

Two you are a bullE36 M3 artist just looking for attention.

You tell me what you are.

Don't worry,   if  we need to make a changes we will.  You'll get your chance to run that big block against the Jag. ( they even have NHRA up here) 

Thank you for the attempt to be cordial and reasonable, for a change. I have seen you do it before. But this thread descended rapidly, but any time you are being rude, you always blame it on what someone wrote... that is usually not what they wrote. 
Yes, you wrote MANY times that it's in the stock location. 99% of the time nobody said it wasn't. Just you claiming they did. I don't need to re read it; my memory ain't what it was, but good enough for that. And several people DID tell you, since it is stock, it does not need a switch. If you put one in, it's not exempt. You just got more and more confrontational about it apparently 'cause you do not like the answer. 
I've said before, I think you and I would get along great in person. I know you have a lot of knowledge, and seem to be a cool guy. Your team is prolly having a blast with the car, and that's great. 
I will call out the inconsistencies in post when I see them. You probably think you were only defending jag's against the bow tie fan boyz, but I saw you throw the gauntlet down many times, and make up a lot of the facts as ya went. So WAY beyond defending. 
Again, I do not have a clue (you right, I am confused there) why you bring up the neilsons again(and again, and again...) since no one else did. Not a bar you are being held to by anyone. 
This last post of yours, is the first (since the question) you have been the slights bit non confrontational. Im sorry you do not see that difference. 
Not once on this thread has cheating been mentioned. That's just a percicution problem you are bringing. 
It has been said in other threads, in frustration, after they got tired of you arguing about how poorly the event is being run. I know you'll deny that, just like you deny acting like the event is not "real racing"... no I don't remember your exact words, but your attitude has always come across. 
We all know you will not be there. No need to think you are reminding me. We also know your team mates might. 

In reply to 03Panther :

Thank you. 

In reply to frenchyd :

I won't be bringing my K30 to race in the Challenge. That's the only BBC I have. I wouldn't bring a BBC anyways because that engine is way past it's prime just like your Jag V12. I'll just beat you with a car with less cylinders and less turbos than you have.

Just to point out the idiocy in motion here, earlier you said that you didn't want to redo something as simple as a battery cut off switch but now you're saying that you'll rebuild the cage to meet NHRA specs.  You are a work of art.  Maybe one done by a first grader but defiantly a work of art.

Stampie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I won't be bringing my K30 to race in the Challenge. That's the only BBC I have. I wouldn't bring a BBC anyways because that engine is way past it's prime just like your Jag V12. I'll just beat you with a car with less cylinders and less turbos than you have.

Are you really that afraid of me?   Jeff and Erick just want to have fun.  You sure aren't setting a very good example  of the potential fun to be had.  

Stampie said:

Just to point out the idiocy in motion here, earlier you said that you didn't want to redo something as simple as a battery cut off switch but now you're saying that you'll rebuild the cage to meet NHRA specs.  You are a work of art.  Maybe one done by a first grader but defiantly a work of art.

 

That was my polite way of saying I think you're full of it.   I've watched repeatedly the Nelsons get into their 9 second car that has a pretty clear view of their cage. 
      Since I have repeatedly stated that I don't feel the Jag will be as fast as they are.  I believe we are safe.   In case I'm wrong we have NHRA inspectors here that can tell me what supplemental  work will be needed before I even start assembly work. 

In reply to frenchyd :

Ok back to you sir. Have fun. Glad that you're so good you know NHRA rules from watching a video.

Your cage is a beautifully constructed somewhat minimalist (that's a compliment too many overbuilt, overly heavy Mad Max cages in road racing these days) road racing cage. It's also missing at least two bars for any consideration in the NHRA not to mention the door bar construction doesn't fit in with what they typically see. Here's where I have an issue with the NHRA, every road racing organization I've been a part of inspects full on site with a group of tech people, NHRA is your local inspector and what he says goes (even when it's incorrect per the rule book) 

In years past the Challenge tech has been very simple taking maybe 30 seconds. In the words of the lone inspector "I can tell when somebody knows what they're doing" granted he did open the inspection with "this thing cant run fast enough to need them tires" I AM NOT SUGGESTING YOU COUNT ON THE INSPECTION BEING LIMITED  we've been arguing for real inspections for years. 

You'll find challenge competitors to be fiercely competitive and protective of the event we love but we are one of the nicest most welcoming groups in racing. I look forward to seeing your car in person, I look forward to meeting your team, I also looking forward to kicking your ass with a third the cylinders/displacement 

The cage is irrelevant. The car won't be going fast enough to require a cage per the NHRA. 
 

That's actually a good thing. Build the cage you want for road racing and don't worry about the NHRA. 

Honestly, I doubt you will need a roll bar. 

I feel like a kid when their parents start arguing.

@Yupididit: I've been reading Frenchy's posts since he started dreaming about entering a Jaguar in the 24 hours of Lemons in like 2005. Hard to get wound up about them now.

SV reX said:

The cage is irrelevant. The car won't be going fast enough to require a cage per the NHRA. 
 

That's actually a good thing. Build the cage you want for road racing and don't worry about the NHRA. 

I've had NHRA people try the "if it's there it has to be our way" thing on road race cages before. Not to say that will be the case. Building a truly dual purpose car is very difficult, doing it for the $4000 or whatever the Challenge rulset ultimately allows is well quite the challenge

Byrneon27 said:

Your cage is a beautifully constructed somewhat minimalist (that's a compliment too many overbuilt, overly heavy Mad Max cages in road racing these days) road racing cage. It's also missing at least two bars for any consideration in the NHRA not to mention the door bar construction doesn't fit in with what they typically see. Here's where I have an issue with the NHRA, every road racing organization I've been a part of inspects full on site with a group of tech people, NHRA is your local inspector and what he says goes (even when it's incorrect per the rule book) 

In years past the Challenge tech has been very simple taking maybe 30 seconds. In the words of the lone inspector "I can tell when somebody knows what they're doing" granted he did open the inspection with "this thing cant run fast enough to need them tires" I AM NOT SUGGESTING YOU COUNT ON THE INSPECTION BEING LIMITED  we've been arguing for real inspections for years. 

You'll find challenge competitors to be fiercely competitive and protective of the event we love but we are one of the nicest most welcoming groups in racing. I look forward to seeing your car in person, I look forward to meeting your team, I also looking forward to kicking your ass with a third the cylinders/displacement 

Now that's a fun way to trash talk.  
 So you have a 4 cylinder 108 cubic inch engine  that's gonna whoop me?    And it's cheap?    
      That I've gotta see.   Oops, no you can't.  ( sorry,  got out of my trash talking mode)  actually something the size and weight of a Lotus 7  probably could.  
  Frankly hauling around a 50 year old engine that weighs almost 800 pounds isn't really the best approach.  
      But it should be fun for the guys. 
  We'll have Jeff read the NHRA rule book and see what we're missing. I'll rewatch  Calvin's U tube video's to see  if I can pick up on it.  It's easy to add tubes at this stage.  Just roll it around on the rotisserie until it's easy access. 
        Regarding the fun?   Apparently I've irritated a couple of guys. Based on most of the comments I hear it should be fun for the guys. 

Stampie said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I won't be bringing my K30 to race in the Challenge. That's the only BBC I have. I wouldn't bring a BBC anyways because that engine is way past it's prime just like your Jag V12. I'll just beat you with a car with less cylinders and less turbos than you have.

I'm going to try another approach.  If that's just your way of trash talking.  Maybe humor is an answer. 
    On a brief serious note.  A modern LS with a big turbo in a smaller lighter car probably can beat me.  My engine is over 50 years old.  Unopened except for maybe a pair of reground cams  if I can fit them in the $2000 budget.  And it weighs almost 800 pounds.  I'm  doing the biggest race car I've ever worked on. So yeh,  a lot of  cars have the potential.  
     I'm just hoping to run respectably.  
    Now for the trash talk. 
    Aw, you play with pushrods and rocker arms. 

In reply to frenchyd :

I'll beat you without pushrods or rocker arms in a car that has 1/3 the displacement, 1/3 the cylinders, and half the turbos your Jaguar has. It's not trash talk if it's the truth.

In reply to Stampie :

Remember, you won't beat him. Just his car. In case you didn't know, he won't be there.