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AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/25/22 10:40 a.m.

When will we see a summary of Town Hall discussions and what changes may be coming for the next event? Rumor mill has me contemplating my future.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/25/22 11:11 a.m.

Let me try to remember:

  • Tire classes was somewhat confusing and hard to follow, especially during awards, but overall was well-received. GTW class was particularly small and ideas were proposed join GTN and GTW, and  just have 200tw vs unlimited, but more tire categories means more awards and therefore prize money handed out...so be careful what you wish for. No changes expected.
  • Autocross work groups and shift changes were too tight for the budget cars. Overall the autocross ran later than schedule and kind of unorganized Ideas proposed for getting more dedicated course workers and also to help staff run the event. Ideas like paying extra for registration so you don't have to work the course, or discounts if you bring extra workers with your team (looking at GT college students...). Adding volunteer/paid/discount registration work assignments related to running the event and helping staff was also a well-received idea to look into. 
  • Help/coaching/orientation needed for newbies, both autocross and drags. Too many repeated DNF's from missed gates and time wasted learning how to drag race. Also assigning work positions based on experience... lots of bad rookie radio chaos.
  • Date change likely. May '23 was proposed by Tom, but nothing official yet.
  • Hagerty cars and coffee was cool. Excited to see that grow.
  • Possibly a no-prep drag lane, since the autocross and street tires may actually launch better. Lots of complaint about track conditions, but mostly from people without drag tires. To be discussed with track.
  • Inflation was discussed, and possibly increasing the $2000 to something greater. It was debated that free tires helps offset that, and also good performance parts have gotten cheaper (ebay turbos, DIY ecu's, etc), and cars are still getting faster, so no changes expected there for a long time.
Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
10/25/22 11:29 a.m.

That's the gist of it. There was also a LOT of discussion about self-trades. My current thought is to leave the rules alone for 2023, then institute some sort of limitation on self-trading for 2024. 

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/25/22 11:36 a.m.

Oh yeah, self-trades. A lot of agreement among the competitors that self-trades should be replaced with FMV sell and FMV buy. I honestly didn't even know you could straight up self-trade stuff from your own stash. I always thought it was FMV based... It's also one of those things that probably isn't as big of an issue compared to how much it's talked about. 

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/25/22 11:48 a.m.

Changing to May would def make it easier for me to attend. October is just too busy.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/25/22 12:11 p.m.

Why single out self-trades vs trades with others? Are we worried about dishonesty? They are still required to be equal FMVs into and out of personal stash and challenge car. Some of us have 30 years of parts piled up, so self-trades are easy. Some of us live in the middle of nowhere and trading with others may be difficult. I suggest that self-trades are not much different than allowing recoup for items that aren't actually sold off.  I also suggest that if you want more $2000 cars to show up, making it harder to build a $2000 car is a directionally incorrect change.

Just a statement here, not a plea for special consideration: May 2023 makes my car a 2024 effort because I lack adequate heat and insulation in my garage to really make progress over the winter. Not your problem, again just a statement.

I appreciate that this event exists, and I'm doing my best to get there with the car I want to use. Eventually, I will get there. :-)

 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/25/22 12:14 p.m.

May change was due to many factors, being too lucky in escaping hurricanes being the primary named.  Would also be at the start of summer semester for college (and high school?) students and so would be easier for them to get down to the Challenge 

Michigan FSAE being about that time means we won't ever see another FSAE team at the event, though.  That makes me a little sad.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/25/22 12:19 p.m.

In reply to maschinenbau :

Current rules state:
 

You may sell or trade parts to yourself for fair market value.

Direct trades do not count towards your recoup limit, but must be recorded on your budget sheet.

Not trying to bust your balls here, but that rule hasn't changed in a few years. 

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/25/22 12:20 p.m.

Less than a month after the Mitty makes for a busy spring for staff, but at least it's schedulable levels of busy, one can never plan on when a named storm could potentially roll through in the late summer/early to mid fall. May should be easier for me to sneak south, hopefully. 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/25/22 12:21 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to maschinenbau :

Current rules state:
 

You may sell or trade parts to yourself for fair market value.

Direct trades do not count towards your recoup limit, but must be recorded on your budget sheet.

Not trying to bust your balls here, but that rule hasn't changed in a few years. 

There was more than one person saying that they interpreted the rule the same way as Travis did.

I dunno why, though.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/25/22 12:22 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:

May change was due to many factors, being too lucky in escaping hurricanes being the primary named.  Would also be at the start of summer semester for college (and high school?) students and so would be easier for them to get down to the Challenge 

Michigan FSAE being about that time means we won't ever see another FSAE team at the event, though.  That makes me a little sad.

It also handcuffs the school teams to not having summer to develop, test, and tune.

the move from April to October, back in 2004 IIRC, was to give us "real" winter folks a chance to develop our cars.

hobiercr
hobiercr GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
10/25/22 12:30 p.m.

It also rains in FL in May, a lot. Better plan for some wet tires for the AutoX.

Also, not saying that it hasn't happened, but has a hurricane ever impacted the Challenge?

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman SuperDork
10/25/22 12:35 p.m.
maschinenbau said:

Oh yeah, self-trades. A lot of agreement among the competitors that self-trades should be replaced with FMV sell and FMV buy. I honestly didn't even know you could straight up self-trade stuff from your own stash. I always thought it was FMV based... It's also one of those things that probably isn't as big of an issue compared to how much it's talked about. 

Not a big issue as there isn't much abuse but current rules definitely allow for it. Making FMV for recoup only would be good.

If the event moves to May, I'll miss you guys. 

Captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/25/22 12:38 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

We can get you involved with a mid Atlantic based team if you don't have a project ready to bring down. 

 

With regards to a hurricane effecting the event, if a named storm rolls through the area of where our host live 3 weeks prior to the event, it effects the the event preparation, best case scenario, it creates a time crunch, worse it damages items that pertain to sponsorship deliverables, worst it results in potential rescheduling. Similar to what I said last year about having karts and non factory chassis only run the 1/8th mile, just because it hasn't happened, doesn't mean that it won't, it just means it hasn't yet, but the odds remain the same. 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/25/22 12:48 p.m.
Andy Neuman said:
maschinenbau said:

Oh yeah, self-trades. 

Not a big issue as there isn't much abuse but current rules definitely allow for it.

What kind of abuse do you envision? I have a few ideas but I don't want to lead the discussion.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/25/22 12:55 p.m.

I may have interpreted the rule differently, but I don't see any reason to change it i.e. don't fix what ain't broke. I lean fairly anti-FMV in the first place but again, we talk about it a lot more than it deserves to be talked about. There is nothing to fix.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/25/22 12:59 p.m.

RE: timing for colleges. The GT students expressed that May would be much better for them. It's hard for them to schedule work over summer when so few members are around, then it's a mad 2 month sprint to scrape the car together.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/25/22 12:59 p.m.
maschinenbau said:

we talk about it a lot more than it deserves to be talked about. There is nothing to fix.

I think everyone is anticipating the year that guy shows up and berks it up for everyone and is trying to get ahead of it.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/25/22 1:08 p.m.
Mr_Asa said:
maschinenbau said:

we talk about it a lot more than it deserves to be talked about. There is nothing to fix.

I think everyone is anticipating the year that guy shows up and berks it up for everyone and is trying to get ahead of it.

Perhaps because I announced several years ago that I was going to be that guy.

laughdevil 

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/25/22 1:09 p.m.

In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

I appreciate the offer, for me it's less about having a car to participate. Its having a free weekend in October. 

gumby
gumby GRM+ Memberand Dork
10/25/22 1:12 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
What kind of abuse do you envision? I have a few ideas but I don't want to lead the discussion.

Not sure if trolling, but there are several threads with much consternation concerning the subject. wink

The current level of abuse vs the fear of a boogeyman vs limiting a potential budget-skirting hole are all differing perspectives on the issue.

FMV isn't going away. The guys with years of accumulated, undocumented, parts will still have avenues to use them. Discussion centered mostly around how many of those parts we can trade into our budgets for $0.

 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

I suggest that self-trades are not much different than allowing recoup for items that aren't actually sold off.  

I'm glad we are in agreement that self-trades should be recorded on the recoup sheet.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
10/25/22 1:15 p.m.

The thing is, Challenge rules are kinda self-enforcing. Anyone who wants to abuse the subtleties of the rules still needs to put in a ton of effort building a fast car even if it has a few over-budget parts, sorting it out so it's actually reliable and competitive, traveling and trailering and expending a bunch of PTO and money just to show up to a parking to cheat against some hoopties. Anyone putting in that kind of effort just for the Challenge is probably going to play by the rules. 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/25/22 1:55 p.m.
gumby said:
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
What kind of abuse do you envision? I have a few ideas but I don't want to lead the discussion.

Not sure if trolling, but there are several threads with much consternation concerning the subject. wink

The current level of abuse vs the fear of a boogeyman vs limiting a potential budget-skirting hole are all differing perspectives on the issue.

but what exactly is "the issue"? And what is the "current level of abuse"?

FMV isn't going away. The guys with years of accumulated, undocumented, parts will still have avenues to use them. Discussion centered mostly around how many of those parts we can trade into our budgets for $0.

 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

I suggest that self-trades are not much different than allowing recoup for items that aren't actually sold off.  

I'm glad we are in agreement that either ALL trades or NO trades should be recorded on the recoup sheet.

FTFY, maybe.  but even that doesn't change anything, because "recorded on the recoup sheet" is not the same as "subject to total recoup limit".

 

cruisermatt
cruisermatt Reader
10/25/22 2:16 p.m.

In reply to maschinenbau :

Agree 100%. and also really nothing material to gain from winning that is worthwhile from a monetary standpoint compared to the time/expense of really participating.  In my three years at the event I havne't seen anything that seemed like it would be over budget. 

AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
10/25/22 2:45 p.m.

How about a Grandfather Clause: Any cars with a continuous build thread for the 2019 Challenge and still not complete due to [reasons] may enter one time under the 2019 rules.

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