MrJoshua said:There are a ton of cars there
I think that might contribute. The relatively small number of cars we run, the cooler than normal temperatures, and the aggressive prep from FL2K might have all contributed to less than ideal conditions.
MrJoshua said:There are a ton of cars there
I think that might contribute. The relatively small number of cars we run, the cooler than normal temperatures, and the aggressive prep from FL2K might have all contributed to less than ideal conditions.
Question for Tom (I considered emailing this, but I'm curious as to what the numbers would be and where they'd need to be to make it happen). But with the additional participation via the classing structure opening things up beyond $2000, would it be viable to hold the autocross on Friday and drags on Saturday, concourse Saturday evening, awards and caffeine and coffee Sunday morning.
It would be an additional day of track rental and insurance, but if the new classing format draws higher attendance and in theory having longer for each discipline would allow for more entries to be allowed.
It would also for allowing of flip-flopping the drags and autocross if the forecast looks as if there's the potential for rain on either day, as you can autocross in the rain, but that's a non starter for drags.
If the event would be an additional $80-100 per an entry but you get a 1/3 more time to autocross and get to explore everyone's builds during the drag strip day, I feel that it'd be a fantastic value for participants.
From an organizational standpoint, I don't know if that would make things more difficult, or if it would allow for more engagement and more content creation from being able to interact with the builders, drivers and teams more and give each car a more significant look over.
^ For those of us doing long distance travel adding a day to the event would be rough but I'm almost in favor of it.
maschinenbau said:Let me try to remember:
- Date change likely. May '23 was proposed by Tom, but nothing official yet.
WOOHOOO!!
that's all for now. 
Space utilization in the concours pavilion... We were pretty packed in this year with a lot of unused space I think ideally we should have enough space between cars you can really get around them and check stuff out. I'd imagine it makes judging and photography easier too.
Having someone on crossbow detail to subdue Hellcat owners and track officials who start and rev vehicles while we have a damn presentation going on?
In reply to Byrneon27 :
I would be heading down from Maryland and I look at it the other way. If I'm getting an extra day of competition for the trip it adds value to me.
I'm pretty sure an extra day at the track is $$$. Also, having all the racing on one day allows for the safety/prep crew only needs to be there for one day.
This event was already a money drain/loss for the magazine. Look at the turnout this year. To make this event possible WE need to show up in numbers, with cars, and pay an entry fee. It's the only way it can continue.
Tom Suddard said:How's this for a solution?
Beginning with the 2024 $2000 Challenge, self-traded parts will be counted in the recoup limit.
Make it ALL trades and I'm 100% on board. Why single out self-trades?
hobiercr said:This event was already a money drain/loss for the magazine. Look at the turnout this year. To make this event possible WE need to show up in numbers, with cars, and pay an entry fee. It's the only way it can continue.
I think this is the biggest issue. There were not many cars there this year in total, even fewer competing in the budget classes. And the budget class cars that were there were far less radical, for the most part, than in years past.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Tom Suddard said:How's this for a solution?
Beginning with the 2024 $2000 Challenge, self-traded parts will be counted in the recoup limit.
Make it ALL trades and I'm 100% on board. Why single out self-trades?
Because self trades are abusable, finding someone to commit shenanigans with you is difficult. Just like being frustrated in high school all over again.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Tom Suddard said:How's this for a solution?
Beginning with the 2024 $2000 Challenge, self-traded parts will be counted in the recoup limit.
Make it ALL trades and I'm 100% on board. Why single out self-trades?
I traded a transmission I got for free for a set of heads and ignition bits and such. Now suddenly thats gonna cost me a couple hundred in my budget?
berkeley that E36 M3.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Tom Suddard said:How's this for a solution?
Beginning with the 2024 $2000 Challenge, self-traded parts will be counted in the recoup limit.
Make it ALL trades and I'm 100% on board. Why single out self-trades?
You should probably look into the rare currency loophole. Just need a couple 1909 S VBD lincoln cents and a coin collecter to buy you the parts you need for your build and then give him your two cents for them. Technically you gave him $.02, still would be $.02 if you spent those two pennys at walmart...
Mr_Asa said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Tom Suddard said:How's this for a solution?
Beginning with the 2024 $2000 Challenge, self-traded parts will be counted in the recoup limit.
Make it ALL trades and I'm 100% on board. Why single out self-trades?
I traded a transmission I got for free for a set of heads and ignition bits and such. Now suddenly thats gonna cost me a couple hundred in my budget?
berkeley that E36 M3.
I need a transmission worth $300. I have one on my shelf. My challenge parts car has a decent interior worth $300. I put the interior parts on my shelf and put the trans in my challenge car. My budget hit as a self-trade would be $300. But if *you* had that trans and wanted my interior and we made that trade, my budget hit would be $0. How is that right?
hobiercr said:I'm pretty sure an extra day at the track is $$$. Also, having all the racing on one day allows for the safety/prep crew only needs to be there for one day.
This event was already a money drain/loss for the magazine. Look at the turnout this year. To make this event possible WE need to show up in numbers, with cars, and pay an entry fee. It's the only way it can continue.
Is that factual? They lost money on the event this year?
In reply to Cooper_Tired :
No clue how it did this year, but cost has been mentioned in the past as the biggest factor to the event changes and it's longevity.
In reply to Cooper_Tired :
I'm not sure and GRM doesn't need to disclose the financial details of the event. I'd love to see them make 20k plus off of it, but know that couldn't be further from reality. It's very likely a loss leader that promotes their brand and community.
All that being said, hypothetically, if the track cost $7500 per a day and having it a second day meant entry numbers could be increased to 100 entries, but cost would need to increase, at minimum $75 per an entry to cover the additional track cost, that would be a no brainer to me, under two conditions. First being that the actual economics worked out to be viable as such and second being that the effort and time of an additional day worth worth the same efforts for the host with regards to editorial content being able to be obtained and the flexibility to ensure the best possible track conditions possible over the weekend.
Patrick said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Tom Suddard said:How's this for a solution?
Beginning with the 2024 $2000 Challenge, self-traded parts will be counted in the recoup limit.
Make it ALL trades and I'm 100% on board. Why single out self-trades?
Because self trades are abusable, finding someone to commit shenanigans with you is difficult. Just like being frustrated in high school all over again.
Every rule can be cheated by cheaters. I could give someone $300 for a trans and text them saying "for the record, I gave you $50 for a trans" and they could text back "yep". And I could put that trans in my budget at $50. But I wouldn't because that would be cheating. I could buy a trans from some random CL ad for $300 and text my buddy Jay "for the record, I gave you $50 for a trans" and he could text back "yep". And I could put that trans in my budget at $50. But I wouldn't because that would be cheating.
"Because self trades are abusable." Is not a good answer. Name specific ways they could be abused, and make a rule against those ways. Or make ALL trades count against recoup.
what you're saying is "a challenger by themself is less honest than a challenger with another person." And I disagree.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Mr_Asa said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Tom Suddard said:How's this for a solution?
Beginning with the 2024 $2000 Challenge, self-traded parts will be counted in the recoup limit.
Make it ALL trades and I'm 100% on board. Why single out self-trades?
I traded a transmission I got for free for a set of heads and ignition bits and such. Now suddenly thats gonna cost me a couple hundred in my budget?
berkeley that E36 M3.
I need a transmission worth $300. I have one on my shelf. My challenge parts car has a decent interior worth $300. I put the interior parts on my shelf and put the trans in my challenge car. My budget hit as a self-trade would be $300. But if *you* had that trans and wanted my interior and we made that trade, my budget hit would be $0. How is that right?
In this specific example given? Ok, this is going to be a bit esoteric, so stick with me.
Because then the entire look for your car changes. Your story changes. Your concourse story and score changes.
Let me expand upon that last one.. Unless I'm mistaken, you've stated that you want your car to be a driver, right? Something as equally comfortable to go cruising in as it is competent at the track? A cruiser has an interior. So if you make that trade you are A) giving up on one of your stated goals, or B) going to have to figure out how to get an interior to stick to your goal.
The better question is why would I want your interior?
Let's look at a better example, or at least one that is closer to being more common ( https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/xr4ti-challenge-build/201390/page1/ ). Let's say that I find the proverbial widow's car. Her old man passed away, she has to downsize in order to move to Florida and won't someone buy this thing so she can get out of here? You open the barn door and then have to pick up your jaw. Its a 1967 Whatever Thingamacallit. They made 12, last one sold for $50k and was rougher than this one. She will take any offer, and you aim for Challenge glory (and probably infamy when the story gets around)
Is it fair? Do you buy the car at that price?
There is a sucker born every minute. If someone doesn't know the value of their parts or their car, is it your job to educate them? Also, who are you to say what value someone else should place on their crap?
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
Here's something that I've always thought could or should be utilized with regards to the policing of self-trades. And I'm not responding to you specifically. I'm just responding to you as you're the last person in the conversation with regards to it.
There is the don't be a dick rule. I feel that if somebody is self-trading and the values don't align and three entered competitors for that year, feel as if the self trade in violation of the don't be a dick rule, values not aligning, scarcity, or whatever, but if three people are in agreement then it should be taken to then organizers and called out as such. And if it is done so, Then the person who was called out on breaking the don't be a dick rule needs to find five people that are currently participating in that years event to the state that it doesn't violate the don't be a dick rule. If the person finds five people that says it doesn't violate the don't be a dick rule, then the 5-3 ruling of competitors who are present moves to allow the self-trade to stand and not be in violation of the don't be a dick rule.
This would prevent a single person from calling out a trade that they don't like, as they would need to find two others that are in agreement. And it allows the person accused of being a dick to find five people who feel that it's within the framework of the rules and spirit of the event to in turn clear their name.
In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :
That's only part of it, though. The economics of an event like this are only partially about event costs versus revenue from entry fees. If you could get it to break even on that alone, that would be amazing, but there are a couple other factors, right? What kind of direct sponsorship package can you sell? How can you drive incremental print/digital ad revenue by leveraging promotion at the event? What's the value of having the content that the event generates (e.g. if you get three really interesting builds, that's three articles you can write where they come to you for the photography and interview)? What's the halo effect of having an event like that (not only do you build brand-loyalty, but it provides a certain cachet that can raise the value of the brand)?
My take on the trade rule:
It is too easy to get wrapped up in the what if's! IIRC most of the rule changes are in response to actual overuse of a generous rule, not potential overuse. There are mountains of ways you could potentially overuse a rule, trying to make rules that prevent all of that leads to miserably excessive rule books that kill what the mag wants-people building cool stuff, showing up to the challenge, and having a good time. (especially if it's in ways they can write about)
In reply to wae :
I do think it is probably easier to say-"hey: do you want to promote your product to new porsche and viper owners?" than "hey, do you want to promote your product to people who combine parts from a toilet and a washing machine to make a really old crappy car go fast? "
In reply to wae :
Oh I agree that it's only part, but if the base covers the facility cost then the "other" than starts to cover payroll, publishing, promotion, etc.
Facilities cost is a small slice of the pie.
Mr_Asa said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Mr_Asa said:AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:Tom Suddard said:How's this for a solution?
Beginning with the 2024 $2000 Challenge, self-traded parts will be counted in the recoup limit.
Make it ALL trades and I'm 100% on board. Why single out self-trades?
I traded a transmission I got for free for a set of heads and ignition bits and such. Now suddenly thats gonna cost me a couple hundred in my budget?
berkeley that E36 M3.
I need a transmission worth $300. I have one on my shelf. My challenge parts car has a decent interior worth $300. I put the interior parts on my shelf and put the trans in my challenge car. My budget hit as a self-trade would be $300. But if *you* had that trans and wanted my interior and we made that trade, my budget hit would be $0. How is that right?
In this specific example given? Ok, this is going to be a bit esoteric, so stick with me.
Because then the entire look for your car changes. Your story changes. Your concourse story and score changes.
Let me expand upon that last one.. Unless I'm mistaken, you've stated that you want your car to be a driver, right? Something as equally comfortable to go cruising in as it is competent at the track? A cruiser has an interior. So if you make that trade you are A) giving up on one of your stated goals, or B) going to have to figure out how to get an interior to stick to your goal.
The better question is why would I want your interior?
Let's look at a better example, or at least one that is closer to being more common ( https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/build-projects-and-project-cars/xr4ti-challenge-build/201390/page1/ ). Let's say that I find the proverbial widow's car. Her old man passed away, she has to downsize in order to move to Florida and won't someone buy this thing so she can get out of here? You open the barn door and then have to pick up your jaw. Its a 1967 Whatever Thingamacallit. They made 12, last one sold for $50k and was rougher than this one. She will take any offer, and you aim for Challenge glory (and probably infamy when the story gets around)
Is it fair? Do you buy the car at that price?
There is a sucker born every minute. If someone doesn't know the value of their parts or their car, is it your job to educate them? Also, who are you to say what value someone else should place on their crap?
2000challenge.com/rules/ states:
You may sell or trade parts to yourself for fair market value.
and then later the rule for establishing FMV says:
All fair market values used must be proved in your build book with supporting documentation. Ways to prove fair market value include:
Copies of corporate listings of similar items for sale.
Copies of at least three comparable listings from a peer-to-peer selling website (eBay, Facebook Marketplace, Craigslist, etc.)
A copy of a GRM message board thread where at least 5 users with more than 50 posts have agreed with a proposed fair market value for your item.
So why are we still talking about this? There is no difference between a trade with self and a trade with other.
Regarding my stated goal of my car being a cruiser, how does that have anything to do with its challenge configuration? Why do *you* get to say that *my* cruiser should have an interior? If my challenge parts car wasn't a Corvair (hint: it wasn't), how much of that interior would you say I should use in my Corvair? How big would you say my gas tank should be? It's currently 8.5 gallons, does that meet your definition of how much gas my (eventual, maybe) cruiser should carry?
etc ad nauseum
In reply to Captdownshift (Forum Supporter), regarding the don't be a dick rule:
the challenge rules define trades to have equal FMVs on both sides of the trade, and the rules define how to establish FMVs. Can you give examples of being a dick while operating within those existing rules?
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