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Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/27/22 11:11 a.m.

Traditionally the rules have been frozen for 3 years to allow someone to build to a ruleset and not have the rug pulled out from under them. I think you've been building for 4 years now?  You're saying that it'll be another two years before you show. Is it reasonable to expect the rules to stay the same that long?  I understand you're not happy but that doesn't mean you pee in the pool everyone else is swimming in. 

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/27/22 11:11 a.m.
Stampie said:

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

I think I've made it very clear that the trans is available for trade. Not one single person has expressed interest. 

What I don't understand is we were told that trades are put in budget at $0 cost. How can $0 cost count against anything?

I believe trades are tracked because they add detail to the potential editorial content of each challenge car's story. We have to remember that the challenge exists to generate content for the magazine. And they're tracked in the budget because that's the tool we have for tracking the content of the build.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/27/22 11:15 a.m.
Stampie said:

Traditionally the rules have been frozen for 3 years to allow someone to build to a ruleset and not have the rug pulled out from under them. I think you've been building for 4 years now?  You're saying that it'll be another two years before you show. Is it reasonable to expect the rules to stay the same that long?  I understand you're not happy but that doesn't mean you pee in the pool everyone else is swimming in. 

How exactly am I peeing in the pool?

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/27/22 11:15 a.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
Stampie said:

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

I think I've made it very clear that the trans is available for trade. Not one single person has expressed interest. 

What I don't understand is we were told that trades are put in budget at $0 cost. How can $0 cost count against anything?

I believe trades are tracked because they add detail to the potential editorial content of each challenge car's story. We have to remember that the challenge exists to generate content for the magazine. And they're tracked in the budget because that's the tool we have for tracking the content of the build.

I'll happily put a line item in there for $0 or $Trade if thats the concern.

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/27/22 11:16 a.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:
Stampie said:

Traditionally the rules have been frozen for 3 years to allow someone to build to a ruleset and not have the rug pulled out from under them. I think you've been building for 4 years now?  You're saying that it'll be another two years before you show. Is it reasonable to expect the rules to stay the same that long?  I understand you're not happy but that doesn't mean you pee in the pool everyone else is swimming in. 

How exactly am I peeing in the pool?

Please see the last post on the previous page

Ranger50
Ranger50 MegaDork
10/27/22 11:42 a.m.

Y'all make my head hurt....

Re: self trades- how about I pull the 521" stroker boss 9 out of the Galaxie, it makes a measly 620 crank hp, I inherited and budget it for $145? That's going rate for a pnp engine off the one local price sheet. That's how I'd abuse the rule but don't. Only because I don't have to establish a fmv via quorum. Not fair but completely within the rule set. Yes, it goes against the don't be a dick rule, but what if I just don't care?

This sort of stuff is why even self trading with fmv, D2D can't be challengeable. I traded out the stock 7.5 rear for the 8.8 I had in my previous ranger with my dad for zero dollars. He cut the chassis up to make a trailer out of the rear section and didn't need it anyway. I can troll enough FB group listings and make the turbo coupe engine zero, but they are in Cali mostly.... So, let's do a roadkillesqe fly and drive. Load it in back and because "I was in the area for something else", transport/freight is free. I have enough parts right now besides wiring to finish D2D, whether turbo 2.3/302/351/460/hell I have a 300 straight 6 too, but fmv self trading on any part prices me out. I even started out with an easy parted to zero vehicle, because $400 purchase price.

Etc etc etc....

Re: track prep- This is a literally sticky subject. On one hand, the company in Germany that makes the ether for the base stock of glue, quit making it. This makes it hard for VP to make LC9 or VHT to make their version of glue. Lots of tracks either closed early for the season or told everyone it's not glued or no prep, which they still tendered the lanes with dragging to smooth the balled up rubber, just nothing sticky. Tracks that setup for radial prep is way different for slicks. Radials need the glue to stick where slicks just need enough glue to hook because the slick just has mechanical advantage through surface contact.

Losing traction and crashing at the big end was probably a combination of a couple things. One is just vehicle setup that isn't tested, skilled driver or not. Second, there was a hurricane that rolled through. Florida is largely sand and a relatively high water table. The track surface had water on it that just can't be seen through seepage. The ground was saturated and wicking back up because it's overloaded with water. You can't feel it or see it because it's like black ice up north.

"We", races that I and my friends attend, race well upto midnight. As the dew settles out right about sun gone, track gets reprepped quickly to evaporate possible water around.

Drag radials fyi are NOT zero treadwear, they are 100tw. This hurt when the 200tw tire rule was proposed. Even nitto nt05's are a 100tw tire, which I still have from my challenge Miata from '17, thanks Patrick.

Re: the rest- this was fun in the aspect as it was a building exercise. Sadly, it's become a buying exercise. If I lucked into a free 91 Mustang 5.0, which I have squirreled away, plus a rebuilt c4 thats never been used, and all I need is a converter, I'd say that should be what the challenge is/was about. I'd put that into D2D yesterday!

All I hear anymore is how so and so has this and that and I don't have that. So what. Build what YOU want to bring and leave the class warfare politics out of it. If I found a f40 that lost storage for 2k, I'm there if I had to sell my kids! Don't anyone say you wouldn't because you are lying.

Peace out. See, anyone that wants to, in Orlando for SickWeek in February!

Brian

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
10/27/22 11:52 a.m.

Did somebody crash?

Patrick
Patrick GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/27/22 11:59 a.m.

I volunteered in 2016(and feel it fell upon either deaf ears or the ears of a staffer no longer with the magazine) and again am putting it out there that if I choose to attend I would gladly do a small talk and Q/A session before or during dinner for first time drag racers on the hows/how nots and do's and don'ts of drag racing. I heard there were lots of people this year learning on the fly and I've been drag racing since 1998. 
 

Whether I come or not in May is TBD but I feel this is important. The crash with the vette kart would have been avoided by aborting the run many seconds before E36 M3 went sideways

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/27/22 11:59 a.m.

To me, a trade is a trade. Equal in, equal out. Doesn't matter if it's a trade with another person, or a trade with a stash of parts. Trades make it easier to build a car within the defined budget.

so, to me, all trades should be addressed equally. Unlimited? OK.  Limited? OK. Eliminated? OK.

And until the current proposed change to restrict self-trades, they were treated equally. Unlimited and with equal FMV.

the initial discussion was about limiting self-trades while not limiting trades with others, and there were statements of potential cheating, gaming, wildly lopsided, etc, yet nobody has pointed to a specific example of anyone actually doing any of this cheating, gaming, wildly lopsided, etc, self-trading.

So i suggest that the trade rules stay as-is for all trades, or the trade rules change equally for all trades. Very simple.

i will no longer talk about how a rule change could affect my build, because it's not about me or my build.

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/27/22 12:02 p.m.

I'm still relatively new to the Challenge having only competed for 2 years, so I can only speak to what drew me in and what concerns I have with the rules.  I had hoped to participate in the Town Hall this year but was busy while it was happening.

I want to start by saying I love the event, and I don't want to have any feedback I give be taken as disproval of the event.  

The fundamental Idea is sound, compelling, and gives plenty of opportunity for you as a car owner to solve the problem how you want without worry of being limited by unnecessary vehicle rules.  As a person who has fundamentally never wanted to "buy" speed the challenge is an incredible event.   It allows me to use my personal skill set to build something not constrained by any gatekeeping to ensure I spend enough to have the right kind of parts to be competitive.   This to me is what the Challenge is about.  

So the changes I would make and would of suggested at the Town Hall: 

Recoup/Trading should be viewed the same, and be capped for all builds at $1000 irregardless of price to acquire the parts.  Straight Trades should be assesed at the FMV of what is changing hands.  If a "Self Trade" occurs for an Item that had a cash value the FMV of the part being traded must be established to be equal to that amount.    By allowing up to $1000 of recoup for all builds this continues to maintain trades being an option for dealing with parts in excess of "purchase price", but limits it to a reasonable amount to prevent "boogeyman" builds with $5000 of convoluted trade schemes.  The ONLY reason I think those should be restricted is because it is difficult to explain to people how you managed to buy a "$500" project car and traded it into items in your garage that have a FMV of $5000.  To me that is the real deal with FMV, people look at the parts we use and they "Know" what those parts cost.  The closer to the perception of what parts cost we stay the more credibility the event has.  Limiting the value of Trades/Recoup goes a ways towards that.

Tube frame, Kit Cars, and Kart Conversions are only eligible to run GTU.  They are free to run on 200TW tires of any width, but they will be classed in GTU.    It would not of made a difference to my result, but the inherent dynamic advantage these type of cars have should be dealt with in the class structure.  GTN/GTW should be reserved for Unibody or Body on Frame vehicles where the body structure remains substantially similar to street.   Yes it's a bit of a gray Area to asses the line with some cars.  The GT S10 I would consider being on the GTU side of this, the Mid Engine Insight would be on the GTW/GTN side.   Forcing these cars into GTU opens 2 classes up to competitors with more "Traditional" builds.   That said it is aboslutely in the best interest of Editorial content to continue to promote and encourage builds like the LMP360, Brad the X71, FDat, The Cedarville Metropolitan, to show up.  If your event premise is go racing for cheap you can't ignore the fact that almost all of the fastest racing is completed in purpose built cars.  Karts (When executed safely) offer the opportunity to take well engineered engines and suspensions and build speed and make something your own and should continue to be allowed, however safety of these vehicles (And tube frame builds) should be a high priority, and we need to ensure that the builds allowed to participate are of sound design.

 

I really want to see the event grow and remain.  I think the good the event can do to encourage people who feel that they "can't afford" motorsports is unmatched.  The fact that ~$10,000 of peoples marketing cannon was aimed at the event shows that for the people we (occasionally) buy parts and tools from they think there is value in that message also.  I try to use my build to encourage people to learn new things and build outside their comfort zone. 

I think the BEST thing all of us can do is get our $2000 builds out in the community as much as possible.  The $2000 challenge is about Fun for cheap.  Obviously it's a competition as well, but the emphasis needs to be on Fun to grow the event.   Showing people that we can take $2000 cars and participate in all the same events they want to do does a lot to open the door to people who just would sit on the sidelines because they think a "racecar" costs $15K or a build like mine starts at $70K. 

Indy - Guy
Indy - Guy UltimaDork
10/27/22 12:03 p.m.
SV reX said:

Did somebody crash?

Yes.

 

GoGators with his Vette Kart, in the Drags.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
10/27/22 12:10 p.m.

In reply to Indy - Guy :

Yikes!

Bad?  Everyone ok?

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/27/22 12:16 p.m.
SV reX said:

In reply to Indy - Guy :

Yikes!

Bad?  Everyone ok?

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/2000-challenge/ls1-kart-drag-strip-crash/212464/page1/

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/27/22 12:35 p.m.

My question is how to you value the trade?  I have a real world trade offer for a set of my Supra seats. I was hoping to give them a list of things I want in trade. Do I value the trade at the FMV of the seats?  Doesn't make sense as I was going to give them a deal because their my friend and also to help the trade value to them worth it. So do I FMV the parts I'm getting?  What if they're brand new parts with receipts?  What if I only have $500 in recoup left but I have a $1200 transmission sitting there. Do I just take the real world hit?  

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/27/22 12:39 p.m.

In reply to Stampie :

These questions are smoke and mirrors. There is a well defined and established set of rules governing how to assign value to trades. 

cruisermatt
cruisermatt Reader
10/27/22 12:41 p.m.

with all the complaining and attempted negotiating about FMV/trading/etc here on the forum, I have yet to see a car at the event that appeared/performed like it was built for more then $2K

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/27/22 12:46 p.m.
cruisermatt said:

with all the complaining and attempted negotiating about FMV/trading/etc here on the forum, I have yet to see a car at the event that appeared/performed like it was built for more then $2K

With the over budget class this year and the times they turned (especially in autocross) I'm not sure how you'd think that.  Unless I misread what you posted.

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/27/22 12:47 p.m.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

​​​​​

Yes, trades should be recorded as $0 transactions on your budget spreadsheet.

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
10/27/22 12:47 p.m.

In reply to cruisermatt :

Shots Fired!

Ranger50
Ranger50 MegaDork
10/27/22 12:53 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Stampie :

These questions are smoke and mirrors. There is a well defined and established set of rules governing how to assign value to trades. 

So if the seats are fmv at $50 and I get $500 in trade, no cash involved, it's a $50 trade result against the budget? Or if you have no idea on the seats and trades straight up, it's $0?

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/27/22 12:54 p.m.

Another question. I paid $500 for my car and already maxed out it's recoup at $500. So now I can't trade any parts that came with it since trades will count towards recoup?

cruisermatt
cruisermatt Reader
10/27/22 12:58 p.m.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Not sure why you would think I am including over-budget cars in a discussion about the $2K budget? 

cruisermatt
cruisermatt Reader
10/27/22 1:05 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

Maybe that wasn't the most clear way to write what I mean - every car I've seen at this event including podium cars like yours, the Bradley, FDAT, etc all seem perfectly well within the $2K budget. I just personally haven't seen anything that seemed like cheating. And if they were they weren't sticking out or winning. So I just don't really understand why this is even a discussion I guess? 

no one is protesting cars at the event so why is there always  discussion about major rule changes? 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/27/22 1:06 p.m.
cruisermatt said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Not sure why you would think I am including over-budget cars in a discussion about the $2K budget? 

I 100% wasn't.  My point was that at last count there are only 6 overbudget cars ahead of the leading underbudget car.  With 30 something overbudget cars in the field, I'm not sure how your math works

Hell, drags are even better.  3rd overall is an underbudget car.

Thats why I asked what you meant by nothing performed like it was built for more than $2k?

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/27/22 1:09 p.m.
cruisermatt said:

In reply to nocones :

Maybe that wasn't the most clear way to write what I mean - every car I've seen at this event including podium cars like yours, the Bradley, FDAT, etc all seem perfectly well within the $2K materials/parts/purchase budget. I just personally haven't seen anything that seemed like cheating. And if they were they weren't winning. So I just don't really understand why this is even a discussion I guess? 

no one is protesting cars at the event so why is there always  discussion about major rule changes? 

Ahh.  That makes more sense.

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