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corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
6/28/21 9:45 p.m.

Well, some good news.  It isn't rod bearings.  Now... are they worn?  Yes.  Is there what appears to be a little heat? Yeah but it's honestly not bad.  Premature wear?  Yeah, but again... not terrible.  Nothing here screams imminent failure or absolute starvation.

So I'm guessing it's going to end up being an oil pump potentially, and possibly a lifter.  While that might suck, it's better than scored cylinders, messed up skirts, and disastrous amounts of chunked out material.

Norma66-Brent
Norma66-Brent Reader
6/28/21 9:47 p.m.

Looks like you caught it early, hopefully you find a smoking gun somewhere. 

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
6/28/21 10:04 p.m.
Norma66-Brent said:

Looks like you caught it early, hopefully you find a smoking gun somewhere. 

I didn't want to be "that guy" who was like "hurdur it's knocking anyway so i'll send it till it sends a rod" because realistically, that can save a ton of headache.  I am hopinmg it's just a lifter.  If the oil pump is the culprit that's going to suck since they are really hard to find.  but... it's better than having to overhaul the whole damn engine.

Javelin (Forum Supporter)
Javelin (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/29/21 9:23 a.m.

Well this thread took a turn I wasn't expecting! I hope it's okay.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
6/29/21 10:35 a.m.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

Well this thread took a turn I wasn't expecting! I hope it's okay.

It'll be alright, I'm gonna look on the positive side:

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
6/29/21 4:04 p.m.

Awkward update.  Propane bottles exploded on some BLM ground outside near the road near the business district where the shop is at.  All businesses have been told to evacuate, his shop included.  My Viper is in that shop.  The owner decided to pop a facebook livestream.  The owner is literally outside with a firehose and said, "They said I can't be here, don't care, got a firehose, gonna water, not leaving.  Love you all."  On top of this, one of the fire engines somehow got lost in fighting the fire and became part of it.

More important than vehicles is that everyone is okay and is staying safe.  I can't believe he's doing this though.  But figured I'd share because man... it's only tuesday and I just am overwhelmed already lol.

We are keeping an eye on evacuation alerts as it seems to be traveling south, we're more north, but it's not far from our house either.

 

JeremyJ
JeremyJ Reader
6/29/21 4:48 p.m.

That's crazy! I hope they can get it under control. Fires this time of year are no joke. 

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
6/29/21 5:34 p.m.

Our house is new in the evac warning zone.  We are at level 2.  There's 2 tankers dropping on the fire, and it's grown.  They lost another truck and apparently a bunch of guys had to run from a flare up.  The whole east side of town is on notice to GTFO if necessary.  This day just got more crazy.

Pets and papers, my work stuff, and everything necessary is ready to go.  My parents showed up with their SUV to help with any extra stuff in case we need to get out fast.  

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
6/29/21 5:37 p.m.

Pic from a resident on another part of town catching one of the tankers coming in

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/29/21 5:56 p.m.

In reply to corsepervita :

Wow!  Stay safe man!  If there's anything I can do to help from up North, let me know!

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
6/29/21 8:10 p.m.
Stefan (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to corsepervita :

Wow!  Stay safe man!  If there's anything I can do to help from up North, let me know!

At this point we're all packed up.

All the level 3 areas have been downgraded to level 2, and two tankers have come out and been dropping on the fires which look like it's starting to get under control.  One person has been arrested for supposedly arson trying to start up a second fire.  I also heard they lost two fire trucks to the whole ordeal.

Definitely been a clusterberkeley.

TVR Scott
TVR Scott GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
6/29/21 8:20 p.m.

Thinking the best for you here.  We get quite a few wildfires here, and they're amazing in how fast they move and how destructive they can be.  Stay safe.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
6/29/21 8:48 p.m.

Sounds like the crews are calling it mostly contained now.  The areas are still marked for level 2 "just in case" it crops up or something happens.  But at this point it looks like they've got most of it out.

I am relieved as hell.  There's a few crews down there, and my buddy said his shop is going to be okay, along with the other businesses next to him.  

I've seen lots of forest fires in oregon over the past many years, but nothing so close to home and never a zone that I was actually in.  It is really wild when you're discussing with your partner, "What do we leave? What needs to go with us?  Where are we going to go?  Do we need this?  Do we need that?  Hold on I should call the insurance company and make sure E36 M3 is covered."

JeremyJ
JeremyJ Reader
6/30/21 10:22 a.m.

What a bunch of terrible decisions to have to make. I'm glad they got it mostly under control. 

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
6/30/21 11:17 a.m.
JeremyJ said:

What a bunch of terrible decisions to have to make. I'm glad they got it mostly under control. 

It flared back up this morning but it's a very small area and they've already got it under control.
We are super relieved.

So that means thursday I get to go back and work on the viper.  Whooooo!

I'm gonna buy the shop owner lunch first.  Dude stayed there wetting down areas around the business district so the fire wouldn't jump to the business area.  Probably saved 30+ customer cars of his, and all the businesses there.  Stubborn, but didn't let up and wasn't gonna go down without a fight.  He's a good friend and he's the kind of guy who would give you the shirt off his back, take you to lunch if you were hungry, and let you sleep on the couch if you still needed a place to stay to boot.  I was kind of thinking, "Well if the car goes it goes, I have insurance." but he spent the last 3 years building his business and it's like his family's second home since they spend so much time there, so there's a part of me that's like, "I get it man..."

Harvey
Harvey SuperDork
7/1/21 10:56 a.m.
docwyte said:

That turned out really well. 

On the topic of paint correction, it's really hard to screw up the paint if you're using a modern random orbiter buffer.  I grabbed all my stuff from Adams polishes and did both the R and 996 last fall.  They came out great.  Next up will be the corrado and then the Cayenne...

What he says, get a random orbital and it is difficult to go wrong. Get a variety of pads, start with the lightest pad and lightest compound and see how that works out. You can try going more aggressive if that doesn't work.

I have a rotary, but for the most part you don't need one if you are looking to put some shine on the car. For what the OP was doing it speeds things up quite a bit to have a rotary, but your average detail does not require wet sanding.

Harvey
Harvey SuperDork
7/1/21 10:59 a.m.
corsepervita said:
JeremyJ said:

What a bunch of terrible decisions to have to make. I'm glad they got it mostly under control. 

It flared back up this morning but it's a very small area and they've already got it under control.
We are super relieved.

So that means thursday I get to go back and work on the viper.  Whooooo!

I'm gonna buy the shop owner lunch first.  Dude stayed there wetting down areas around the business district so the fire wouldn't jump to the business area.  Probably saved 30+ customer cars of his, and all the businesses there.  Stubborn, but didn't let up and wasn't gonna go down without a fight.  He's a good friend and he's the kind of guy who would give you the shirt off his back, take you to lunch if you were hungry, and let you sleep on the couch if you still needed a place to stay to boot.  I was kind of thinking, "Well if the car goes it goes, I have insurance." but he spent the last 3 years building his business and it's like his family's second home since they spend so much time there, so there's a part of me that's like, "I get it man..."

Oh jeez, I just finished the thread, sorry to hear about this, but glad it all turned out okay.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
7/11/21 11:28 p.m.

Some updates:

- Rod bearings are all good.  

- Mains are good

- No scoring on the cylinder walls that I can spot, so far so good.

- The lifters do look like they got hot, one has some wear I don't like, and I am concerned may have harmed the cam.  This just reinforces oil starvation.

- The 80% of the lifters feel pretty smooth, a few definitely are not super smooth on rolling them, and have a little binding, not a fan.

- All pushrods look fine, all straight.  No horrific wear, and are all passing oil.

- Head bolts were torqued oddly.  Someone has been in here and done a head gasket set before, and there was no pitting in the heads which is great.  However, the torque spec seemed far too loose on the corners, far too tight in the center.  So whomever did it did not follow procedure, which is fine, but tells me someone was in here.

- Have /not/ yet pulled the oil pump.  Not sure how much of a pain it'll be but it must be easier than taking the heads off.

Next steps:
 

- Inspect the lifters and test to see if they are indeed in or out of spec, some did feel squishy and my understanding is that they /should not/ be able to be done that with my bare hands unless I'm He-Man.  

- Scope the cam and look at it prior to pulling it, since that'll be far easier to do.

- Starts putting together a full parts list of all the things to seal up, replace, and get back to normal.

 

Post notes:

- Working on a viper engine is really not as bad as i expected.  Things are pretty easy to get to, move out of the way, disconnect.

- There's very little in the way, getting valve covers off is almost direct

- I'm used to working on old german cars or the jalpa and i haven't really dealt with a car that has a "simple" exhaust.  Usually you have a mix of bolts from the top and bolts you have to get from the bottom and weird angles just to get the headers off.  There is a shield cover held on by 3 nuts, those come off, slide right up, expose the rest of the bolts and studs, and they are all within hands reach and use a simple 13mm socket.  Then they slide right up and out with ease.  Honestly, pretty freaking dope.  The clamp below is on a flex pipe from the factory that easily moves out of the way.  

- The intake manifold is really pretty awesome.  I'm used to seeing return systems and I know that returnless systems exist, but on the viper, the whole intake manifold is both the "rail" and supply, returnless, and has just one single fuel line.  Couldn't have made it easier.  

- With the intake manifold off, there's really nothing in the middle, with the valve covers off, it's a matter of a handful of bolts that are even bolted to the heads (alternator and power steering pump) and then the bolts come out and the coils come off the back of the heads, and blammo, heads come right out.

I have always heard "these are purpose made cars, they're built like a race car: easy to work on, easy to get to things, and made to be easy to rebuild." but now that I'm finally getting to work on one?  I gotta say, they really hit the nail on the head.  These are a gearhead's dream when it comes to ease to work on.  And by comparison of other cars that offer similar performance that are european, the parts are reasonable by far, by comparison.

While I was pretty bummed I had to dig in and was dreading it, I am feeling far more comfortable, and really quite enjoying the ride.  Can't wait to actually enjoy the ride again soon.

ScottyB
ScottyB HalfDork
7/12/21 11:49 a.m.

oof!  just catching back up on your thread and sorry to see the guts are already out on the table.  super glad you caught it when you did though - i'm honestly amazed it ran as long, and as well, as it did with those gasket noodles floating around in there.  

i've heard of a few vipers succumbing to lifter failure as well, so its probably worth your while to drop a new set of them in there while you're at it as cheap insurance.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
7/12/21 4:16 p.m.
ScottyB said:

oof!  just catching back up on your thread and sorry to see the guts are already out on the table.  super glad you caught it when you did though - i'm honestly amazed it ran as long, and as well, as it did with those gasket noodles floating around in there.  

i've heard of a few vipers succumbing to lifter failure as well, so its probably worth your while to drop a new set of them in there while you're at it as cheap insurance.

I am genuinely impressed it managed to barf a lifter like that and circulate the needle bearings into the rest of the engine and /not/ get caught by the filter.  Yikes.

Norma66-Brent
Norma66-Brent Reader
7/12/21 9:43 p.m.

Cool that your just ripping into it and finding out what's wrong. Lots of car owners would be terrified to go that deep. 
In the end it's just a car and everything is fixable. Glad to see this car found a good owner.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
7/13/21 5:27 p.m.

Was able to successfully source a housing and oil pump.  
New lifters are on the way.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
7/14/21 3:33 p.m.

Got a parts list sent to viper specialty performance.

Upper and lower gasket sets, oil pan gasket, seals, all o-rings, and MLS gaskets are included.

Rod bearings added to that list as well.

Next step: Inspect camshaft and make sure that it is okay, as well as the journals.  I'm hoping I won't find any indications of journal damage.  Given that the rod bearings look really good, and show little to no wear, I am optimistic.  

If that's the case, should be good to clearn the engine up, inspect oil contaminants, and start getting parts here.

corsepervita
corsepervita HalfDork
7/20/21 3:03 a.m.

New timing chain cover is here, with an oil pump.

After speaking to multiple viper shops they said it's very unlikely the oil pump itself is damaged due to it being a heavier metal, and more likely the housing.  While I haven't pulled the timing cover yet, I figured, "Well, I may as well since I'm down here." so I found a new (to me) housing and pump off of a very low mile gen 1 (some 8000 miles or so I believe the shop said).  Can STILL see the factory cross hatch marks from machining, so it's in fantastic shape.

Haven't sent the heads off.  I wanted to make more progress this week but we put our pup down :( I'll still work on it when I'm a little more motivated.  But this week I've felt like a useless pile of mush.

 

Gzwg
Gzwg New Reader
7/20/21 3:25 a.m.

Hi!

 

Long-time reader, new member. I just wanted to say thanks for putting up all those pics and detailing your work!

Seeing the window and roof made me chuckle - that makes the mechanism of an Elise or Speedster Roof look highly sophisticated :D

Sorry to hear about your pup!

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