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TurnerX19
TurnerX19 UberDork
2/4/24 7:26 p.m.

Your deck and liner support on bottom are very similar to Coventry Climax FWE. Geezer memory says +.0018/+.0023. Alfas are similar, and even the old iron Triumph lump specified a positive number. I'm interested in Murry's answer.

mke
mke Dork
2/5/24 11:03 a.m.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

The ferrari spec is +1-3 thou, I'm hearing +3-5 is better.  

10 years ago I know I measured them at around 2....so I'm a little confused  but they are what they are today and changing them is not an appealing thought so hopefully not needed

mke
mke Dork
2/8/24 7:23 p.m.

While i wait on gasket guy its back to brakes.  I ordered a 3rd proportioning valve,  and a couple Tees and 2000 psi transducers.  The plan is get the master cylinders swapted this weekend and by the following to rest of the bits will be here.

mke
mke Dork
2/10/24 5:58 p.m.

Started in on the brakes.  All the bits aren't here but I did swap out the master cylinders which took longer than I hoped. Way back I changed my mind on where I wanted the pedals height set after I'd already built the pedal box and ended up shortening the pusher rods on the masters, so those also had to be swapped. My clutch pedal has an adjustable pedal stop and going from a 0.7" to a 0.75" master I need to reduce the allowed travel by 15% or risk damaging the clutch

Then I had had machined the clutch pedal to accept a standard brake light switch to add clutch position to the ECU for stuff like launch control or maybe push button start...but the stupid switch didn't want to thread in properly because the molded threat were oversize but eventually I got it.

Still waiting the 3rd proportioning valve, the pressure sensors and tees plus I'd forgotten that I used the original rear brake line for the clutch and then used US sized stuff for the new rear line US stuff on the rear line so I need to order the correct Tee for that.  

I also started playing with reading the sensors.  The ECU always reads all the inputs so all I need to do is connect is to see it, but seeing it as 0-2000psi instead of 0-4.5V means converging in the ECU or as a virtual channel in the tuner.  I set it up in the ECU which is dead simple, Channel list>Add Channel>analog conditioner

Then name it, select an input  channel, tell it what the sensor should read and what the sensor voltage output is.  That's it, now the ECU has a special channel for front brake pres that can be viewed in the tuner or added to a data log.  

I decided to created it in the ECU because I think I will also add an brake malfunction light then lights if the rear pressure is not correct compared to the front pressure.  With the balance bar and all the proportioning valves it seems like to would be easy for something to be wrong or a master cylinder failure, anything that causes the f/r bias to be out off from where I set it.  The relationship is a curve so channel list>Add Channel>1D table and plug in the info from the spread sheet I made.  Last winter or the winter before I thought it was a good ideas to use the "slow down" light as a malfunction indicators and the Brake warning light as a shift light since its on the tach and easy to see, but now that I'll have a brake warning maybe I'll blink it for a brake issue.  Need to think about that.

mke
mke Dork
2/15/24 2:45 p.m.

Now that all my brake parts are here, gasket guy pointed at the factory liner height specs and said I should fix it so the rest of the engine needs to come apart.  Then the question is do I trust a local shop to follow my directions or do I deck so I've no one to blame but myself?  I've found that when instructions are odd, mistakes tend to follow but my machine is really not big enough which also leads to problems....

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 UberDork
2/15/24 3:51 p.m.

In reply to mke :

I would absolutely find a way to mill these decks myself, even if it required buying a new mill!

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/15/24 6:40 p.m.

With all the machine shops closing, finding a used one should be fairly easy, I would think.

TurboFource
TurboFource HalfDork
2/15/24 9:23 p.m.

When I worked at a race car shop about twenty years ago we decked blocks and surfaced heads on a Bridgeport. He had made a large diameter and heavy cutter (flywheel effect) with 4 carbide inserts so the interrupted cuts wouldn't affect the cutter rpm ... he won his first NHRA national event while I worked  there so I would say it worked fine....

dave215
dave215 New Reader
2/16/24 7:22 a.m.

Are there specific reasons why cylinder shims are ruled out ?Many of the diesel engines with drop in liners use shims with acceptable results.

mke
mke Dork
2/16/24 7:24 a.m.

The issue is I have the 36" not the 49" table so I don't have the travel to come off the ends with a big cutter.  I did the heads by moving around and off the back but they sit flat vs the block that wants the machine head kicked to 30 degrees unless  I make a jig....so its just harder to do, possible for sure, but harder.

mke
mke Dork
2/16/24 10:02 a.m.
dave215 said:

Are there specific reasons why cylinder shims are ruled out ?Many of the diesel engines with drop in liners use shims with acceptable results.

I've been wondering the same thing.  I guess it would bugger up the o-ring compression at the bottom of the water jacket.

TurboFource
TurboFource HalfDork
2/16/24 10:03 a.m.

In reply to mke : That would be a challenge as you had to make sure everything was positioned right for the longer travel table to work.

 

mke
mke Dork
2/17/24 7:25 p.m.

I honestly didn't have a lot of motivation today thinking about the liners and since the pedals here still laying on the bench I worked on that a little.  I kept screwing up what lines I needed and they gave me a wrong one I didn't notice until I'd bent it, but 3 trips to the store later the rear has its 3 proportioning valves and a pressure transducer.  Homely adding the transducer to the front tomorrow goes smoother.


The EMPI vales is the finest chinesium, heavier than the wilwood but still has a plastic adjusting knob and lettering the just wipes off 

 

mke
mke Dork
2/17/24 7:44 p.m.
dave215 said:

Are there specific reasons why cylinder shims are ruled out ?Many of the diesel engines with drop in liners use shims with acceptable results.

I'm still pondering what to do and had mentally come back to shims because the liners are already sketchy so I just hate the idea of decking the block vs replacing them.  I figures I design up the shims and get a price to have them laser cut...shims are not possible, well maybe they would stay put but they don't go all the way around.  So now I'm pondering JB weld....

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/17/24 7:51 p.m.

JB Weld is non structural.

How much more up do you need on the liners?

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 UberDork
2/18/24 1:58 a.m.

Can you not shim the bottom of the liner? That is where the clamping load needs to resolve .

dave215
dave215 New Reader
2/18/24 6:44 a.m.

googled ferrari cylinder shims and serdi uk ferrari parts came up.

Grunion
Grunion New Reader
2/18/24 10:49 p.m.

100 years ago I rebuilt a Renault engine, same basic 1100 as they first used in Europas, the wet sleeve piston kit came with a gasket ring that the sleeves sat on. Would a similar gasket work for your application? It raised the sleeve high enough that the head would clamp the cylinder.

Hope this isn't teaching gran how to suck eggs? I love your work, I've read the entire thread so get back at it!

mke
mke Dork
2/19/24 8:37 a.m.
TurnerX19 said:

Can you not shim the bottom of the liner? That is where the clamping load needs to resolve .

That is not how these work. These are clamped on the flange at the top of the liner and the rest of the liner just floats.  That allows the cylinder to be much thinner without reforming I guess.  The old style ferrari liners had no top flange and sat on the middle flange but the newer stuff uses a top flange and the middle is just a rubber ring to keep the coolant in so shimming that won't help.

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 UberDork
2/19/24 8:42 a.m.

In reply to mke :

Makes sense regarding cylinder shape, all of the wet liners I've installed were at least .150" wall, the TR ones are more like .200"

mke
mke Dork
2/19/24 9:28 a.m.
TurnerX19 said:

In reply to mke :

Makes sense regarding cylinder shape, all of the wet liners I've installed were at least .150" wall, the TR ones are more like .200"

Mine are  .080" at the bottom, .120" through the water jacket.  The 308QV, 328, 512TR,  355  I think are all coated aluminum so really flexy

mke
mke Dork
2/19/24 9:53 a.m.

I finish up up the brake lines withe the front transducer cut in and the li es bleed.

factory spec says 4" brake travel, 6.2" clutch travel, my setup is almost exactly reversed with 4" clutch and 6" on the brake, which moves about 2- 2.5" .  No way to know how it feels now but mentally I believed I was feeling more flex in things making me sure the pressures are higher and it was totally worth the trouble laugh

Still need to wire in the new sensors.  I was also looking a brake pads and found myself a bit confused.  All 4 caliper and rotors are the same ans Stoptech list the sames pads f/r (for the f430 my brakes are from), but EBC lists different part number f/r with the prices at $80/$120....but I have no idea what is different or why I should pay the extra $40 instead of ordering 2 front sets.  The pads I have look fine but I was thinking with higher friction would further improve the pedal feel so I was eying the EBC bluestuff as they don't offer green which looks like  slightly higher friction I think just fine for my indended use.  More thinking to do on that....I just hate the idea of spending $40 and not knowing why.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/19/24 10:20 a.m.

In reply to mke :

remember with pad output, it's not just "friction", it's "friction within my normal operating temperature range".

APEowner
APEowner GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
2/19/24 10:40 a.m.
mke said:
dave215 said:

Are there specific reasons why cylinder shims are ruled out ?Many of the diesel engines with drop in liners use shims with acceptable results.

I'm still pondering what to do and had mentally come back to shims because the liners are already sketchy so I just hate the idea of decking the block vs replacing them.  I figures I design up the shims and get a price to have them laser cut...shims are not possible, well maybe they would stay put but they don't go all the way around.  So now I'm pondering JB weld....

 

I'm still thinking that shims are the correct way to handle this.  Based on my understanding of the way this goes together, if you had shims shaped like the contact area you could slide the sleeves in most of the way.  Slip the shims in under the lip of the sleeve and then drive the sleeves home.

You might be able to make the shims your self pretty cheaply.  Get some laminated shim stock and sandwich it between two pieces of sacrificial aluminum and then machine to size.

mke
mke Dork
2/19/24 10:46 a.m.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

Yes, that is why I set the yellow pad option aside and really wanted green, but blue is nearly as good as green cold and maintains good number to higher temps.  Somewhere on the website I saw they said green are great for cars under 200hp...so lower top speeds and likely why they don't off that material for the f430 calipers.  Blue is nearly as high cold though ( .52 vs .55 I think it was).  I want to avoid the red ceramic because the rotors are expensive so I'd rather wash the dishes off the wheels than buy new rotors.

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