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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/12/23 11:54 a.m.

The car does indeed learn traction levels from a hard launch - I posted some info about that a few pages back after discovering the regen behavior change in slippery conditions. It's slower to assume increased traction levels than decreased levels, but hard launches will do that for you.

I've got a query out to some folks I know about the used tire rolling resistance question. I suspect the noise increase you get with worn tires is also caused by that airflow problem I postulated.

Squirrely at launch sounds pretty fun :)

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/13/23 2:30 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to frenchyd :

It's hard to keep up with the various feature names. But to start, be aware of the levels of autonomy.

As far as I understand it, all Teslas come with Autopilot which consists of Autosteer (fairly effective lane centering) and Traffic Aware Cruise Control (aka radar cruise, not that different from what's found on many other new cars but with a couple of extra tweaks). I find Autosteer to not be very helpful, as it disengages every time you change lanes and hey, just let you hands follow your eyes. The cruise is useful especially since the EV doesn't have the sense of speed that comes from the almost subliminal engine noise in an ICE. This is Level 2 autonomy.

According to the Tesla website, Enhanced Autopilot adds:

  1. Navigate on Autopilot
  2. Auto Lane Change
  3. Autopark
  4. Summon
  5. Smart Summon

Navigate on Autopilot is defined as:

Automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp includes automatic lane changes, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control with complete stopping and re-engagement, Autosteer, and overtaking slow cars in your lane.

That's the sort of thing that people might misinterpret as autonomous driving, but isn't. I suspect most of the news stories of Teslas crashing are people assuming Enhanced Autopilot is autonomous, but it's not even certified as Level 3 although the description sounds like it matches. IIRC only Mercedes has approval for a Level 3 system in the US, it can only operate in Nevada and it's not actually available on the market yet. Level 3 is fundamentally flawed because of how humans work, the driver is expected to be ready to retake control at any time, and after a long period of inattention that's not going to happen. There's been a lot of conversation about this after the recent Waymo dog/car accident. 

Full Self Driving is the $15k option - although you can also subscribe for $199/mo. It's the future Level 4 system. At some point it will be better (on average) than human drivers in terms of accidents per mile, but at the moment it's somewhere around dodgy Level 3. I have friends who use it, I have no experience with anything past the basic Autosteer/cruise combo.

I would not - did not - spend the money on either as I believe Enhanced Autopilot does not add any significant useful capability over the standard Autopilot and FSD is fundamentally flawed until it reaches full Level 4, as are all Level 3 systems.

Thank you for the clarification.  I understand some of the model Y's are being shipped with level 4 hardware.   To be followed by model 3's. 
  Nice to know about $199/ month. 
  I'm sure I won't need that level of assist  for a decade or more.
   I do know that loss of mobility ( driving a car)  is the immediate precursor  to  assisted living. With an average cost of $6000/ month  once  your savings are spent  you become a ward of the state.  Those places are really dreary and sad.  
      I accept the Self driving features  will allow me to maintain my ability to safely drive when my reaction time and inflexibility  would require me to give up my license cense.  
  I don't know how far down my abilities will drop before autonomous driving becomes a requirement.   I suspect that will st best give me a year or two? 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/13/23 3:51 p.m.

Hardware is useless without software and certification. Tesla has been shipping the cars with FSD hardware since before we got ours. But the software is not ready, and it's definitely not certified and legal for use at Level 4. It will likely be some time before that's the case for any automaker. As noted, only one automaker has Level 3 permission in the US and only in one state and they haven't actually delivered any cars that can take advantage of it.

84FSP
84FSP UberDork
6/13/23 5:40 p.m.

Regarding running changes.  Tesla is either genius or insane.  They launched the Y and 6months later the refresh had completely removed all steel from the firewall (now a long figerglass pa6 polymer injection molded sheet).  They completely changed the front and rear end going to a single casting that consolidated ~24 components and saved 50% weight and cost for each unit.  They then pulled the entire steel floor and made the polymer composite (thermoset woven long glass discontinuous fiber 6-8" fiber) and battery is now the first ev using the battery as a stressed chassis member with seats bolting directly to the battery case.  Literally NOONE in automotive would do this kind of ~70% structural chassis edit as a running change.  

I do a bit of work with them and both love and fear their engineering courage.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
6/13/23 5:45 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

 I never expect to enter a destination and crawl in the back seat to sleep.   I understand  the process is improving with inputs from every  driver .  
 The first goal is to achieve greater safety  than normal drivers achieve. 
   It's easy to see that as a probability  in a reasonably short period of time.  It really is the only a matter of computing power. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/13/23 6:03 p.m.

In reply to 84FSP :

Yeah, the amount of change taking place under the skin is astounding. That's why it's always amusing to read articles talking about how Tesla's lineup is "stale". From a marketing standpoint, sure. From a technical standpoint, far from it. The biggest changes are taking place at the factory level. It's fascinating stuff to watch.

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/13/23 6:24 p.m.

So, in other news - Koni has just announced that they have both the Special Active and the Sport available for the Model 3. I've been waiting for these. I think I'm going to order a set of Special Actives and see how they work on this car, I think they'll be a good match to my use case and the chassis. They're expecting the first shipment soon.

When logging the tire rotation, I discovered that somehow we've managed to put 35k on this car in the past three and a half years despite working at home for the majority of it and living in a fairly small town. That's very high mileage compared to the rest of the fleet. 

84FSP
84FSP UberDork
6/13/23 6:38 p.m.

VertigoBora (Bilstein Designer) is working on a coilover setup for me as apparently the lowering gets 6-8% wh/mile improvement, in addition to moar low.  Will report back after.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
6/13/23 6:43 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to 84FSP :

Yeah, the amount of change taking place under the skin is astounding. That's why it's always amusing to read articles talking about how Tesla's lineup is "stale". From a marketing standpoint, sure. From a technical standpoint, far from it. The biggest changes are taking place at the factory level. It's fascinating stuff to watch.

 

Agreed. How often does one see a consumer products company that is truly engineering driven? I have a number of criticisms for Tesla, but that doesn't come near my admiration for their drive and chutzpah. My company made a couple things for Teslas prototype shop way back when. I wrote them off as yet another overpromising bunch of techies bound for the scrap heap. How wrong I was.

mattm
mattm GRM+ Memberand Reader
6/13/23 7:40 p.m.
yupididit said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

That's interesting to learn about the Tesla refresh/upgrade processes. Are they planning similar for the model X? It seem those have the worst reviews from owners vs the other Teslas. The Kia EV9 looks promising and my wife was just showing it to me. But, she has a R1S ordered but I'm unsure if she's sold on paying that much. I dont see the EV9 being much cheaper though. 

The Model X was updated similar to the Model S on which it is based. We waited 13 months on our Model X and picked it up in November 2023. The doors have been problematic in the past and may still be, we just haven't had much in the way of issues. Was offered a plaid to get an earlier delivery date, but only 670 hp is enough for my wife.  It is quieter than my 2019 Model S by a lot and has significantly more punch above 80mph.

The interior updates are significant with much improved cupholders and center console storage.  It really is a tall station wagon version of the S, and has been great for us. 
 

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/20/23 10:57 a.m.

I've posted it before, but the ability to turn on the AC before I get in is the biggest luxury I've ever met in a car. Sometimes I'll even leave it running when I'm doing errands if I have things in the car that I don't want to get hot, like groceries. That doesn't keep the trunk cool, however, as Janel found out when bringing some cupcakes home. Melted frosting everywhere but it didn't slow down the visiting 6 year old when it came time to eat. 

There's also a dog mode that keeps the interior comfortable and puts a note on the big screen saying it's cool inside and the dog is happy. Haven't tried that, don't have a dog :)

Yesterday I got an email from my utility. They've got a new program where they identify the best time of day for the car to charge based on grid stress and renewable energy output. They give me a window of time to charge in. If at least 25% of my charging is done in that window, I get a $50 credit. This is a decent way to use EVs to move demand around on the grid - it's low effort on my part (with no penalty if I don't comply), I get a bit of a reward and if I were on time-of-day metering I'd also be charging at the lower cost times of day.

If I'm reading the FAQ correctly, I can sign up for one of three windows:
9 pm - 6 am (overnight, low grid stress)
12:30 am-9:30 am (ditto)
6:00 am - 3:00 pm (renewable output with lower grid stress?)

Note that 3 pm to 9 pm is not included, that's probably the peak demand on the grid. And also when commuter EVs get first plugged in, so they're trying to encourage these commuters to charge in the middle of the night instead.

Reading the FAQ, it looks like it's actually integrated into the Tesla app - it automatically schedules the best charging time. It also lets me set a departure time (defaults to 6 am) to ensure the car is fully charged by that point. If the car is below 20% when it's plugged in, it'll start charging immediately.

It's a little irrelevant for us, as the car is most often charging while our solar array is pumping out power so the grid doesn't get involved. But I think I'll give it a try to see how it works, I think programs like this are a good way to help the grid adapt to EVs and I'm a curious kind of guy.

 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
7/20/23 11:11 a.m.

My utility has an interesting program, too: For a flat fee of $38/month for 10 years, they'll install a level 2 charger in your home and give you free all you can eat electricity during off-peak times using that charger. It's very compelling, but my usage isn't quite high enough to make the math work and it's a fairly slow charger--only 6kw IIRC. If I was driving 100-200 miles per day for work, though, it's a crazy good deal. 

MrJoshua
MrJoshua UltimaDork
7/20/23 12:31 p.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard :

Can you then use it to power your home from the lightning?

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
7/20/23 12:54 p.m.

In reply to MrJoshua :

Physically, yes. Contractually, I'm sure there's something that prohibits it. I'm also wondering if you could use it for two EVs. Or twenty....

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/20/23 1:33 p.m.

Question for the Tesla owners, mattm might be better at answering this as not sure it rains much by Keith.

Is the lack of a rear window wiper a big deal?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/20/23 1:40 p.m.

In reply to Slippery :

Not on the 3. Airflow seems to keep it clear. Others will have to report on the other models.

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
7/20/23 3:48 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I've posted it before, but the ability to turn on the AC before I get in is the biggest luxury I've ever met in a car. Sometimes I'll even leave it running when I'm doing errands if I have things in the car that I don't want to get hot, like groceries. That doesn't keep the trunk cool, however, as Janel found out when bringing some cupcakes home. Melted frosting everywhere but it didn't slow down the visiting 6 year old when it came time to eat. 

There's also a dog mode that keeps the interior comfortable and puts a note on the big screen saying it's cool inside and the dog is happy. Haven't tried that, don't have a dog :)

Yesterday I got an email from my utility. They've got a new program where they identify the best time of day for the car to charge based on grid stress and renewable energy output. They give me a window of time to charge in. If at least 25% of my charging is done in that window, I get a $50 credit. This is a decent way to use EVs to move demand around on the grid - it's low effort on my part (with no penalty if I don't comply), I get a bit of a reward and if I were on time-of-day metering I'd also be charging at the lower cost times of day.

If I'm reading the FAQ correctly, I can sign up for one of three windows:
9 pm - 6 am (overnight, low grid stress)
12:30 am-9:30 am (ditto)
6:00 am - 3:00 pm (renewable output with lower grid stress?)

Note that 3 pm to 9 pm is not included, that's probably the peak demand on the grid. And also when commuter EVs get first plugged in, so they're trying to encourage these commuters to charge in the middle of the night instead.

Reading the FAQ, it looks like it's actually integrated into the Tesla app - it automatically schedules the best charging time. It also lets me set a departure time (defaults to 6 am) to ensure the car is fully charged by that point. If the car is below 20% when it's plugged in, it'll start charging immediately.

It's a little irrelevant for us, as the car is most often charging while our solar array is pumping out power so the grid doesn't get involved. But I think I'll give it a try to see how it works, I think programs like this are a good way to help the grid adapt to EVs and I'm a curious kind of guy.

 

I do that, too. I left Tunakid 4's violin in the car for an extended period of time, and Tunawife was worried about temperature and humidity. I just left the car on and locked the doors. Nice.

84FSP
84FSP UberDork
7/20/23 6:03 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to Slippery :

Not on the 3. Airflow seems to keep it clear. Others will have to report on the other models.

Same from my side and the cameras click on when you hit the turn signal giving you really nice rear/side visibility.  The rear window visbility on the 3 was compromised very near launch when the engineers figured out they were really limiting trunk ingress/egress.  They gave up some visibility to make it much more useable.  With the rear seats folded flat it has a ton of interior space hatchback style.

dyintorace
dyintorace GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/20/23 8:04 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I've posted it before, but the ability to turn on the AC before I get in is the biggest luxury I've ever met in a car. Sometimes I'll even leave it running when I'm doing errands if I have things in the car that I don't want to get hot, like groceries. That doesn't keep the trunk cool, however, as Janel found out when bringing some cupcakes home. Melted frosting everywhere but it didn't slow down the visiting 6 year old when it came time to eat. 

That was the number 1 feature of our i3 (IMO). And it was one of the main things I was looking forward to with the Ioniq6. The only bummer is that you can only activate the AC while the car is 'off' via the app or some VERY convoluted manual steps (which include reaching back into the car via an open window and straining to reach the HVAC controls). 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
7/20/23 9:56 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I've posted it before, but the ability to turn on the AC before I get in is the biggest luxury I've ever met in a car. Sometimes I'll even leave it running when I'm doing errands if I have things in the car that I don't want to get hot, like groceries. That doesn't keep the trunk cool, however, as Janel found out when bringing some cupcakes home. Melted frosting everywhere but it didn't slow down the visiting 6 year old when it came time to eat. 

There's also a dog mode that keeps the interior comfortable and puts a note on the big screen saying it's cool inside and the dog is happy. Haven't tried that, don't have a dog :)

Yesterday I got an email from my utility. They've got a new program where they identify the best time of day for the car to charge based on grid stress and renewable energy output. They give me a window of time to charge in. If at least 25% of my charging is done in that window, I get a $50 credit. This is a decent way to use EVs to move demand around on the grid - it's low effort on my part (with no penalty if I don't comply), I get a bit of a reward and if I were on time-of-day metering I'd also be charging at the lower cost times of day.

If I'm reading the FAQ correctly, I can sign up for one of three windows:
9 pm - 6 am (overnight, low grid stress)
12:30 am-9:30 am (ditto)
6:00 am - 3:00 pm (renewable output with lower grid stress?)

Note that 3 pm to 9 pm is not included, that's probably the peak demand on the grid. And also when commuter EVs get first plugged in, so they're trying to encourage these commuters to charge in the middle of the night instead.

Reading the FAQ, it looks like it's actually integrated into the Tesla app - it automatically schedules the best charging time. It also lets me set a departure time (defaults to 6 am) to ensure the car is fully charged by that point. If the car is below 20% when it's plugged in, it'll start charging immediately.

It's a little irrelevant for us, as the car is most often charging while our solar array is pumping out power so the grid doesn't get involved. But I think I'll give it a try to see how it works, I think programs like this are a good way to help the grid adapt to EVs and I'm a curious kind of guy.

 

With the introduction of the Cyber Truck Bidirectional charging became possible.  
       In your opinion with that option be added to future Tesla's?   If so it would be a very welcome addition.  
 I'm sure it would require isolation your house from the grid so you don't back feed power into the lines.   Could you achieve that by just shutting off the main breaker?    

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/20/23 9:57 p.m.

In reply to dyintorace :

I'm having a little trouble unpacking that... Don't have your phone handy or are out of cell service but can close the window with the remote after starting the HVAC?

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
7/20/23 10:05 p.m.
frenchyd said:
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to frenchyd :

It's hard to keep up with the various feature names. But to start, be aware of the levels of autonomy.

As far as I understand it, all Teslas come with Autopilot which consists of Autosteer (fairly effective lane centering) and Traffic Aware Cruise Control (aka radar cruise, not that different from what's found on many other new cars but with a couple of extra tweaks). I find Autosteer to not be very helpful, as it disengages every time you change lanes and hey, just let you hands follow your eyes. The cruise is useful especially since the EV doesn't have the sense of speed that comes from the almost subliminal engine noise in an ICE. This is Level 2 autonomy.

According to the Tesla website, Enhanced Autopilot adds:

  1. Navigate on Autopilot
  2. Auto Lane Change
  3. Autopark
  4. Summon
  5. Smart Summon

Navigate on Autopilot is defined as:

Automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp includes automatic lane changes, Traffic-Aware Cruise Control with complete stopping and re-engagement, Autosteer, and overtaking slow cars in your lane.

That's the sort of thing that people might misinterpret as autonomous driving, but isn't. I suspect most of the news stories of Teslas crashing are people assuming Enhanced Autopilot is autonomous, but it's not even certified as Level 3 although the description sounds like it matches. IIRC only Mercedes has approval for a Level 3 system in the US, it can only operate in Nevada and it's not actually available on the market yet. Level 3 is fundamentally flawed because of how humans work, the driver is expected to be ready to retake control at any time, and after a long period of inattention that's not going to happen. There's been a lot of conversation about this after the recent Waymo dog/car accident. 

Full Self Driving is the $15k option - although you can also subscribe for $199/mo. It's the future Level 4 system. At some point it will be better (on average) than human drivers in terms of accidents per mile, but at the moment it's somewhere around dodgy Level 3. I have friends who use it, I have no experience with anything past the basic Autosteer/cruise combo.

I would not - did not - spend the money on either as I believe Enhanced Autopilot does not add any significant useful capability over the standard Autopilot and FSD is fundamentally flawed until it reaches full Level 4, as are all Level 3 systems.

Thank you for the clarification.  I understand some of the model Y's are being shipped with level 4 hardware.   To be followed by model 3's. 
  Nice to know about $199/ month. 
  I'm sure I won't need that level of assist  for a decade or more.
   I do know that loss of mobility ( driving a car)  is the immediate precursor  to  assisted living. With an average cost of $6000/ month  once  your savings are spent  you become a ward of the state.  Those places are really dreary and sad.  
      I accept the Self driving features  will allow me to maintain my ability to safely drive when my reaction time and inflexibility  would require me to give up my license cense.  
  I don't know how far down my abilities will drop before autonomous driving becomes a requirement.   I suspect that will st best give me a year or two? 

Do you have Tesla insurance or regular car insurance?   As I understand it Tesla insurance requires safe driving and no driving after 10 pm  to have the lowest rate?  

mattm
mattm GRM+ Memberand Reader
7/20/23 10:35 p.m.
Slippery said:

Question for the Tesla owners, mattm might be better at answering this as not sure it rains much by Keith.

Is the lack of a rear window wiper a big deal?

In my experience, the answer is no.  The rear window remains clear in my experience.  The defroster does a nice job of removing snow quickly in the colder months, and during the warmer months, the slope of the window and the airflow keep the rear window clean on both of our Teslas. 

dyintorace
dyintorace GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/21/23 7:04 a.m.
Jesse Ransom said:

In reply to dyintorace :

I'm having a little trouble unpacking that... Don't have your phone handy or are out of cell service but can close the window with the remote after starting the HVAC?

Our i3 allowed the AC to be turned on while the car was 'off'. I think it would run for 30 minutes. Tesla has 'dog' mode. Hyundai has neither. Here is the hack I found.

1. Put the running car in park.
2. Go into the “EV” menu, select “Utility Mode” and turn it ON.
3. Roll down driver’s window
4. Exit car.
5A. Reach inside open window and lock doors.
5B. Trigger the window up while removing arm from open window.
6. You can now walk away from a locked car and the AC will continue running
7. Use Bluelink app to open doors when you return to the car. (NOTE: Key fob will not unlock door.)

Placemotorsports
Placemotorsports GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/21/23 7:30 a.m.

In reply to 84FSP :

The camera view is nice on the center console but i rarely look at it. If it were on a small monitor where the tweeter grills are that would be a better spot IMO.  Especially when changing lanes on the left. 

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