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nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/12/22 3:13 p.m.

Ok so time for a little bit of budget / Time catchup. 

The time is a bit of an estimate based on work days based on phone picture dates and what I can remember.  I added 15% for "fluff" to try to be as accurate as possible.  Again time is only counted if it's In the garage working.  Time spent shopping/purchasing/planning/going to from events/at events is not counted.

Work since Subiefest +75 Hours.  That's time spent on Underbody Aero, Moving the Exhaust, Shrouding the Fan, Building the new Shifter bringing the total to 638.25 Hours.  

Costs:

Shifter: - $1.10

Fan Shroud:-$1.68, the old fan shroud material was removed at (-$4.79) and the new shrouds only required $3.11 worth of aluminum.

Underbody Aero:  $112.69, $18.10 in Foam Board, $24.89 in Cedar fence pickets/Plyurethane Glue/expanding foam, $69.70 in Epoxy/Eglass

Underbody Aero Mounts: $9.86, T-nuts, bolts, tubing for difuser quick release, tabs for side Aero mounts

Sidepods: $23.48, Fiberglass and Resin

Sidepod mounts:  $0.74, Strips of metal

Paint for Sidepods and to make underbody Black: $9.36

Exhaust move:  No Change in Budget.  Material was Re-used.  The exhaust is going to drop off soon anyway and be fabricated out of dozens of pie cuts from the original outback exhaust for the Challenge (That will be -$127 but that's for later when it happens)

Current Budget at Nationals:  $2003.88 + $500 RFP1s + $800 Fuel Safe Fuel Cell + $660 Falken RT660s.  

I am currently $4 overbudget.  I have about another $90 I plan to spend.  The Exhaust removal will cover all of that so I anticipate the final build budget to be $1970.  There are other things I can remove to cut costs if necessary that I am still carrying from my spend money to save time last year.  The fuel pump is $31 and I still have the stock in tank that I may build into the fabricated tank I need to make.  The Brake system has ~$62 of components that are "nice to have" but not necessary that could be removed.   Electrical has $42 of convenient fuse panels that could be easily bypassed. Repainting the body would remove the $50 of spray paint and could replace it with $10.99 worth of acrylic but that's a fair amount of work.   I will be fine on budget for what I have left but it's not going to be substantially underbudget.  

hobiercr
hobiercr GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
9/12/22 3:34 p.m.

The videos from Nationals are great. As others have said, major kudos to getting it done and running so well.

Do you have any thoughts on how the new aero worked for you? The car looked a little loose in the videos on the slower turns and I'm interested if you think more tire or more aero would help. How did it feel on the faster slalom sections?

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/12/22 4:53 p.m.

In reply to hobiercr :

It's hard to say.  I'll cover a few observations.

The car is more prone to oversteer at low speeds then higher speeds.  The Aero should be more rear biased based on wings and diffusers so it is possible this is Aero induced changes in the dynamic response.  

The car feels "heavier" as speed increases steering weight increases but the feel of the rear being "planted" increases as well.  

On the longer higher speed course (the one with all the revlimiter) the car felt more stable/planted then on the lower speed course.  

"High speed" slaloms feel similar to how the FSAE car felt when we ran it with big wings.  Grip seemed to build more quickly in relation to chassis dynamic motions, meaning the car took less time to respond to transient inputs.  Simply it felt more "direct" then when ran previously without any wings.   This could have more to do with the way the RT660's behave compared to the previous event R7's but again it's a "feel"

It's possible these are just the effects of increase momentum.  A car in motion tends to be harder to change direction as speed increases because the momentum force grows.  Steering weight could be increasing just because the tires are spinning faster, more angular momentum = more gyroscopic effect, and the contact patch moves rearward which increases mechanical trail.  So I'm not sure anything is conclusive.  

What I would really like to do (and plan to do at the Post challenge track day) is run with data tracking on the car with the full Aero installed.  Then because its' relatively easy to remove (4 bolts for the front element, 4 bolts for the difusers, and 6 bolts for the rear wing) run a session with no Aero.   This should provide some really interesting data and should allow for comparison to min speeds and g loading in the corners.  If anyone who is the area or is planning to be at the Post Challenge Track day at the FIRM could bring better data aquisition then Track Addict on my Phone I'm totally willing to run it.  It could even make a good article for some random magazine... .. 

hobiercr
hobiercr GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
9/12/22 5:30 p.m.

Great info! Having never driven a car with aggressive aero, especially in an AutoX setting, it is really difficult for me to grock how it would feel. I love the idea of getting with/without data at the post-Challenge track day. Do you plan to run aero in the drag portion of the challenge? Would it be feasible to get solid runs early in the autoX and then remove front/rear aero for some comparisons? The flexibility with which you built this platform really lends itself to continuous modification/tweaking.

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/12/22 7:50 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

Maybe ping Tom/JG/David & mention that. 

sleepyhead the buffalo
sleepyhead the buffalo GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/12/22 8:40 p.m.
nocones said:

In reply to hobiercr :

If anyone who is the area or is planning to be at the Post Challenge Track day at the FIRM could bring better data aquisition then Track Addict on my Phone I'm totally willing to run it.  It could even make a good article for some random magazine... .. 

I actually started a side-bar conversation with Bobzilla about making sure you/he/I capture some data from Challenge... because some data would be helpful for me to build some models off of for the next series of events you're eyeing to tackle;  and I realize you've got you enough in your hands getting the car someplace and get "basic things done".

edit:
would a Solo/ApexPro in the car count toward budget?  What about a phone mounted, running TrackAddict?

Teh E36 M3
Teh E36 M3 UltraDork
9/12/22 8:44 p.m.

Would the "heavy" feeling abate at all if you were able to attach the aero out on the suspension rather than the chassis? Penalty of unsprung weight but aero should be pretty light already. 

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/13/22 10:51 a.m.

In reply to Teh E36 M3 :

I've not driven a car with unsprung Aero so I am not sure how it would feel.  The car doesn't feel heavy in a negative way.  It's just at speed you get the feel that something is changing about the way the car behaves dynamically.  I may look at doing unsprung Aero someday but for now in the next 5 weeks I simply hope to get the car done.  I've kinda ran out of time for my crazier ideas.

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/13/22 10:58 a.m.

In reply to sleepyhead the buffalo :

I'm not sure if Data Aquisition counts.  The closest rule would be this in the exemption section:

  • If a computer is in the car during competition, it and its cables/adapters are exempt from the budget provided they are easily removable, leaving every vehicle feature fully functional in their absence

Data would have no impact on the vehicle and it would fully function without it so I think it's exempt.  

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/13/22 11:12 a.m.

OH ALSO!

I found a few Exterior shots of the car on the internets.  I have some from the official onsite photographer but I don't have the digital copies yet so I can't show those. 

These pictures are from Nick Nardin off of Facebook.

As near as I can tell this is in the final corner on the Thursday "East" course.  This corner would of been exited at approximately 55mph as I was shifting to 3rd right before the lights.  The second picture is basically on the limit full throttle in 2nd gear at about 50 mph.  

My takeaways from these pictures:

The suspension appears to do suspensiony things.  Body roll is a little higher then I would ideally like, though looking at the rest of the AM field (He posted pictures of this corner for all heat 1 cars) it is in line with the other cars.  Perhaps post challenge I will explore addition of small swaybars.  Static front negative camber could probably be increased.  Rear suspension ride frequncy probably could be a tiny bit higher.  It looks like the rear suspension is pretty well loaded exiting the corner so I will likely adjust the belcranks to be a bit stiffer.  I looked the underbody over last night and there was no evidence of any contact on any of the Aero parts, so the suspension is keeping the chassis off the ground during competition runs.  Again post challenge I am likely to look at adding a 3rd member to the front and rear which will change things.   But overall the suspension works.  Handling is balanced and predictable so anything I change long term I will want the changes to be balanced.   

I may be Biased but it also just looks so cool out on course.  It's wierd because I spend all the time fretting over the car from 5' away or closer with it 3' off the ground so my normal view of it is kinda skiewed.  I think most of the lines worked the way I wanted but there are a few angles that I was conerned wouldn't work.   But then I see pictures of the car and I'm like "yeah Okay. this worked".   

Also Also  This Krylon French Blue 2X paint is some kinda magic stuff.  I assure you in person the paint quality doesn't look that good, but man that paint photographs very well.  

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/13/22 12:34 p.m.

It's just sooo badass!

singleslammer
singleslammer GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/13/22 3:55 p.m.

Wow, just wow. This thing is brilliant.

DrMikeCSI
DrMikeCSI New Reader
9/13/22 6:10 p.m.

Wow, every time I see pictures of the car it just blows me away. Fantastic work and a great informative blog. 

sleepyhead the buffalo
sleepyhead the buffalo GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/13/22 9:21 p.m.

re:  aero attached to the uprights vs aero attached to the frame

I'm not sure that mounting aero to the uprights (i.e. not 'through' the action of the suspension spring/dampers) will have much effect on the steering 'feel'.  The aero is applying further load into the tire, which is increasing the friction of the tire contact patch with the road surface... which will concomitantly increase the resistance (i.e. difficulty) to turning the steering wheel.  Which is a good thing, because it gives you tactile feedback of the additional downforce enhanced vehicle grip levels.

I think the main drawback to mounting aero to the body is that it means you'll typically have to run higher spring rates / damping rates to keep the car from bottoming out the suspension as speed and downforce increase... creating a vehicle suspension dynamic system ("ride") that is uncomfortable/dangerous to... endure?  inhabit?  contend with?

I think the heave-damper / 3rd Link is probably the better/more-efficient/less-dangerous way to address this aero-load / suspension system linked problem, than mounting aero to the wheel in some way... especially with a double-a-arm setup.

Rigante
Rigante Reader
9/14/22 5:55 a.m.

it looks so cool, be proud of yourself

Carl Heideman
Carl Heideman
9/14/22 8:53 a.m.

nocones, I just want to chime in to say how cool this is. My son and I were at the Solo Nats and finally saw it in person. We stopped a few times to say hi but missed you. Congratulations on a great build and keep going!

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
9/14/22 9:34 a.m.

That paint really does photograph so well. Car looks great through those turns!

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/16/22 11:46 a.m.

Ok more time machine stuff.  Sidepods photo download and discussion.

So the car needed sidepods.  I toyed with how to do these.  I initially thought about doing something AM Valkyrie like and just have a vertical black panel but decided I wanted something a little curvier.  I really like the look of the current F1 car sidepods with their kinda silly up high rectangular intakes so I knew I wanted to play with that idea.  The width overall was dictated by the rear fenders.  The right sidepod is functional as it houses the radiator fan.  The left sidepod does nothing but look similar to the right.  

To build them I made the shape by just stacking and hot gluing foam.  Hot glue on foam is wierd.  It melts the foam and the foam insulates it do it takes like 15 minutes to cool.  But if you put enough on eventually it works.  I think for the roof I will switch to trying spray adhesive like a super 77 type.  

The stacks where roughly cut to shape and glued to each other on the car.  I had the wierd notch around the door opening tube to deal with which is wierd.  Eventually I want to redo the way that works but for now I just notched everything around it.  

After the bulk buck was ready shaping began.  I used a normal wood handsaw to cut the overall profiles from the side and top view.  The opening shape was cut and then blended down the side to make the step.  After rough shape was done with the handsaw a Harbor Freight electric Random Orbital sander was used to finish off the shape.  The opening in the front was not cut in the buck, the part just wrapped the edge and was cut to shape after.  

The buck was coated in packing tape and then layup occured. 

My process is cut fabric to rough shape plus a few inches then mix resin.  I generally only mix 10-12 oz at a time.  I find with this amount I can get it on the part before the mix cup starts to harden.   More then that you really have to work quickly to get it out of the cup before it's trash.  Being an exothermic reaction resin thickness affects it's cure rate.  I find I get about 15 minutes before the mix goes off in the cup.  That means after about 12 minutes what's in the cup is starting to gel and really isn't useable.  If it's a lot of resin once it starts to gel it will turn basically solid in about 20 minutes.  For the resin on the part if I do 1-2 layers of CSM it generally takes 30-40 minutes to kick and isn't fully "hard" until about and hour.  I use this extra 20 minutes to either mix more resin and continue to layup or j get out my resin roller and just continuously roll the part until the roller starts sounding like it's going over a hard plastic vs squishy resin.  Full cure takes 24-48 hours but at 1.5-2 hours the part can be demolded and really isn't going to change shape.  If you put weight on it and deform it it will cure in the deformed state so it's always a good idea to brace the part out of the mold. I usually just put it back on the mold overnight.  

So the actual layup is brush the mold with a layer of resin until it is all glossy looking.  Then lay the fabric down and work resin into the fabric to saturate it.  Once mostly saturated (turns that yellow fiberglass color) start rolling it.  

For most parts on the car I've done 2 layers of CSM.  For the sidepods because they have so much curvature I only did 1 layer for the bulk of the shape and did a 3" strip 2nd layer around the edges for stiffness.  The parts seem to be marginally sufficient.  

Mounting is just some tabs to the chassis with rivets.  The back mounts with Z brackets to the rear fender mount, the front uses a strip to mount to the seat bar.   The lower front is zip ties for now.  The bottom of the sidepod is open and just rests on the Aero tunnel.  

So that's the sidepods.  They are $23.48+$1.25 for mounts.   They didn't give me any issues at Nationals or being towed to Nationals.  We will see if that changes at 100mph on the dragstrip.

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/16/22 12:10 p.m.

And to bring things up to the absolute current work on the roof has began.  

I added a 3/4" bar 7" forward of the roll hoop that is attached to the body.  This bar was bent using my press.  It adds about 1.5" to the height of the car but makes the lines more consistent with an original roof dome and should look better then a more flat roof would when complete.   It also brings the roof scoop intake forward to aligned with the door frame.  I think this will look best.  I can still climb over in front of this bar with no issue.  I was concerned people may push on the roof so I knew something a bit more structured then just fiberglass was probably a good idea.  

Behind this there will be an additional filler panel that will seal between the roof and the firewall top.  This panel will remove with the body so it will just rest on a foam strip along the firewall top.   The roof scoop will start at the bar and a duct runs back to the firewall.  This duct piece has a flange that sticks past the firewall that will seal to a box around the filter.  This part will make more sense moving forward.  

I'm going to redo the flanges to make a bit of taper toward the back.  The flat look doesn't match the shape of the roof flanges on the car and would make quite a hump.  

+1.5 hours, +$2.04 for the crosstube +$0.87 for the duct. 

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/16/22 12:22 p.m.

Oh also I mounted the outback wheels..  they are fine I guess.  See this excellent rendering for what I will probably do with them.  The gold will be a bit more bronze and the pink would be STI pink.  

Which reminds me.  Livery.  

What should I do?  I would like to spice it up a bit but I won't have a lot of time and don't want to move to far away from the Blue.  Ideas Ive had is a simple Subaru stars on the back and just leave the rest blue.  Do a darker blue buffalo plaid on some of the car like the hood.  Do darker and maybe lighter blue camo splotches.  I like the digital camo look that Mad Mike has on his son's Miata Drift car and that would be easy to just make some square stencils. 

I would love to have the ability or know someone that does tagging and unleash them to do something crazy on the car. Or do something similar to Hoonipig and have some random symbols painted on the car.  I dunno just kinda thinking out loud and this thread has kinda been my random string of consciousness.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/16/22 12:40 p.m.

Looking good!

sleepyhead the buffalo said:

re:  aero attached to the uprights vs aero attached to the frame

I'm not sure that mounting aero to the uprights (i.e. not 'through' the action of the suspension spring/dampers) will have much effect on the steering 'feel'.  The aero is applying further load into the tire, which is increasing the friction of the tire contact patch with the road surface... which will concomitantly increase the resistance (i.e. difficulty) to turning the steering wheel.  Which is a good thing, because it gives you tactile feedback of the additional downforce enhanced vehicle grip levels.

I think the main drawback to mounting aero to the body is that it means you'll typically have to run higher spring rates / damping rates to keep the car from bottoming out the suspension as speed and downforce increase... creating a vehicle suspension dynamic system ("ride") that is uncomfortable/dangerous to... endure?  inhabit?  contend with?

I think the heave-damper / 3rd Link is probably the better/more-efficient/less-dangerous way to address this aero-load / suspension system linked problem, than mounting aero to the wheel in some way... especially with a double-a-arm setup.

+1 to all of this. A big downside to mounting aero to the suspension, and the reason/excuse for why it was banned in F1, is that hitting a bump can cause your wing to stall momentarily. A heave spring+damper setup is the best (well, next to FRICS) way to deal with downforce-induced lowering.

AWSX1686 (Forum Supporter)
AWSX1686 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
9/16/22 1:08 p.m.
nocones said:

Did this one just get made into a matchbox car? I'm pretty sure I have it. I like it. A build this wild needs a wild livery too. 

preach (dudeist priest)
preach (dudeist priest) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
9/16/22 2:41 p.m.

Old but kind of still used US Navy digi camo:

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
9/19/22 9:07 a.m.

For livery, and this is just my opinion, it could be a situation of "less is more". This build wows and dazzles with its crazy custom bodywork and excessive aero kit. There are not many large surfaces on this car, and most will taken up with number and sponsor stickers, so an intricate livery will be hard to execute and possibly distracting from the more awesome points of interest. I think the light blue with black accent pieces could look concours-winningly good with proper bodywork and shiny paint. About those Outback wheels though... against the light blue, they definitely need to be not-silver. Probably something dark.

Indy - Guy
Indy - Guy UltimaDork
9/19/22 9:32 a.m.
maschinenbau said:

For livery, and this is just my opinion, it could be a situation of "less is more". This build wows and dazzles with its crazy custom bodywork and excessive aero kit. There are not many large surfaces on this car, and most will taken up with number and sponsor stickers, so an intricate livery will be hard to execute and possibly distracting from the more awesome points of interest. I think the light blue with black accent pieces could look concours-winningly good with proper bodywork and shiny paint. About those Outback wheels though... against the light blue, they definitely need to be not-silver. Probably something dark.

This was my thought as well.  Your car's shape is radical enough.  The Miata's shape is relatively boring, so a choppy livery spices it up.  +1 on the less is more idea.

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