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bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/17/22 8:33 a.m.

And I'm an idiot. 
 

I never realized until this morning I was using the wrong dampener. I was reusing the 97 dampener on a pre 86 block. This dampener I have used before had a timing tab on the timing cover. This new engine has the marks offset, with the timing tab bolted to the cover. So I'm setting the timing 20 degrees off based on the dampener! Smh. I'm a tool. New one on the way!

Sgt_Sizzle
Sgt_Sizzle New Reader
3/17/22 9:30 a.m.

Those darn details eh, personally I would have used the old damper, worked out the angle conversion, dialed in 67º of timing and sent itlaugh. Whens that new damper showing up?  I already don't have any more finger nails to bite waiting for this thing to roll again, at this rate I'll be 2 knuckles deep.  

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/17/22 12:24 p.m.

 

New one. Got the part number from the GM kit you would get for this engine. Marked the line with paint to make it super easy to see. 

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/17/22 12:25 p.m.
Sgt_Sizzle said:

Those darn details eh, personally I would have used the old damper, worked out the angle conversion, dialed in 67º of timing and sent itlaugh. Whens that new damper showing up?  I already don't have any more finger nails to bite waiting for this thing to roll again, at this rate I'll be 2 knuckles deep.  

Meh. I figure at this point I need to do it right. 

Its already here!

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/18/22 12:38 p.m.

As chronicled in another thread. A broken bolt has appeared!  Fml. I have begun to remove it with some right hand thread drill bits. I will now switch to left hand drill bits and penetrating lube. I may need heat. Idk. Last resort is to use an extractor.  Conveniently enough the local harbor freight has a 10 piece kit for this purpose. Sigh. 
 

Gunchsta
Gunchsta Dork
3/18/22 12:52 p.m.

I had some luck with a method I recently saw on YouTube - find a torx bit that you can pound into that hole you drilled and see if it gets enough purchase to back the thing out of there. 

 

I just did it one some exhaust studs in an aluminum head and it worked marvelously. Worth a short anyhow. Broken bolts suck! Good luck. 

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/18/22 1:07 p.m.

In reply to Gunchsta :

May the Omnissiah be with me. Warhammer 40k reference lol

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter)
Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) Dork
3/18/22 1:55 p.m.

If you were backing the bolt out when it seized up and broke, you have galled the threads. Using an extractor is 100 percent guaranteed to make the current problem bigger.

If a 7/16 diameter bolt broke off, of course an extractor that is smaller than the bolt is going to break.

The best path to proceed is to step up the drilling progressively larger. Go bigger until you shell the center of the bolt. Then clean and tap the crank again. Worst case, drill progressively larger until you can tap it with a 3/8 tap instead of the original 7/16. Then use a 3/8 bolt to hold the balancer in place. That's miles better than not doing anything or breaking off a cheap HF extractor in the hole.

Remember, back when GM didn't use bolts in this application, they used those little thin dinky balancers and not the big ones like your 350 uses. Look at a 283 harmonic balancer to see what I mean. GM went to a lot of expense to drill and tap and then use a bolt. GM doesn't do things like that unless they have a good reason to do so. If the balancer gets loose it will ruin the woodruff key slot of the crank. Been there and seen it happen...Ruining a crank in a new crate engine is a low point in any car guys life. 

I know I'm a bleak old berkeleyer, but I've been doing this since the 1980s. I've seen most scenarios in one form or the other and made more than my fair share of judgement errors. 

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/18/22 2:03 p.m.

In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :

Short version? Don't use extractors. Do you feel a left hand drill bit would work or shall I continue with larger bits of the right hand variety?  It stands to reason what your saying is true. I'm inclined to take the advice of my betters in this. Being said all of that. I'd like you thoughts please on continuing with either left of right hand bits please.

My only real concern so far as that goes is the hole is fairly centered but it's not perfect.  I am concerned about drilling so much that I wallow out the hole per se and really introduce an issue with a not perfect centered hole and a larger bolt of it comes to that.  I'd hope at the point I have now drilled perhaps one entire side out of the bolt the tension is released and I can fish it out or use a left hand bit to grip it out?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter)
Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) Dork
3/18/22 2:11 p.m.

I have no real opinion on left or right drill bits. That's a 7/16 fine thread bolt you have there and it's seized up quite tight as evidenced by the fact it broke. No left hand drill bit is going to coax it out. The good news is that you've got what looks to be a pretty damn decent starter hole relatively centered on the bolt. Why not drill it larger in increments until you can tap it to 3/8 fine thread ? Then go down and get a 3/8 bolt and washer and install it. 

I lean towards the 3/8 bolt method because no matter how well you have centered your drilling, in the end it won't directly hollow out the bolt. You'll wind up getting into the threads on one edge or the other if you continue drilling towards the 7/16". Stopping short with a smaller size is a safe route. 

And for goodness sake, use a ton of spray lube and take you time. Stand up and walk away each time you increase drill bit size. Stretch your back out. Limber up. Keep your head about you. Don't push it. This is important and a few extra minutes will pay off handsomely in the end result. Easy does it...

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter)
Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) Dork
3/18/22 2:15 p.m.

And if you aren't familiar, when using a tap, turn it no more than 1/4 turn at a time then back it off half a turn to clear the chips. People who crowd it are people who break taps. Back and forth, a little bit more at a time. Cut a little, back it out. Again and again...

Some dudes think you just turn a tap into the hole like a bolt. Those dudes break taps and make things worse...

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/18/22 2:16 p.m.

In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :

So to be clear? If I drill it for 3/8. Tap it for 3/8 and run a 3/8 bolt in.......in a imperfect centered hole. That's not going to cause some larger issue with the balancer bolt being off center?

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/18/22 2:19 p.m.

I do intend at this point to pull the dampener. Unless you recommend not to. I figure it would give more room for the drill to go as it's bottoming out on the dampener and I'm not getting the full push of the bit. Concern there is at that point I'm committed. Not sure if I press on that bit of bolt with the puller that's not gonna help or hurt the issue?

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter)
Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) Dork
3/18/22 2:21 p.m.

Not enough to worry about. Its not that critical. You're talking a bolt that's fractions of an inch offset from dead center on a 50 pound crankshaft. 

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/18/22 2:49 p.m.

In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :

So drill it out to 3/8...................tap for 3/8 and bolt it in?

 

This assumes I leave the dampener installed and this could be an issue down the road when I have to pull it off.....????

10001110101
10001110101 New Reader
3/18/22 3:05 p.m.

Shouldn't be an issue down the road. If you ever need to pull the dampener for any reason there is plenty of snout left to push off of. Drill and tap, bolt and washer. There shouldn't be any real difference in rotating weight, and as Cousin Eddie said it is a 50 pound crankshaft. 

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter)
Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) Dork
3/18/22 3:08 p.m.

I would drill that hole you have to the appropriate size to tap it for a 3/8 fine thread bolt. Then I would carefully tap the hole. Install the pulley onto the harmonic balancer and then torque the 3/8 bolt to whatever torque the machinists charts specify for 3/8 fine. If you're feeling froggy you could take it out to the original 7/16 fine thread size. It's your choice to make judging by your confidence level and seat of the pants as you go.

That's how I'd handle it. 

Looking at the pictures it appears to be a Dorman logo on your harmonic balancer. I'd leave it in place and torque the new bolt down. No sense in stressing out the front seal or the balancer by removing it needlessly. 

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/18/22 3:42 p.m.

In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :

All right. Last question. Suppose I do this, how does that affect future removal of the balancer? How does that affect using the crank bolt to turn the engine in future events where I need to set A cylinder on number one for example? I assume it's strong enough to do that. But since I'm actually now using threads of a seized bolt as the basis for the new crank bolt, what kind of issues will that cause?

Or is this a one and done thing

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter)
Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) Dork
3/18/22 5:25 p.m.

It shouldn't affect the removal of the balancer in the future. Remove the bolt and use a balancer puller. A good puller has a nice cone that plays into the edge of the hole.

As far as servicing, you're just using a 9/16 socket instead of a 5/8 socket to turn the engine. No worries. I usually turn engines slowly as I'm barring them over so compression has time to dissipate and make it easier anyway.

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/19/22 2:43 p.m.

Big thanks to all who helped. Special shout out to cousin Eddie!

Im not sure what happened. I tried to drill another hole to make it more center to drill for a 3/8 hole. Broke a bit off and sorta left it alone. This morning I cleaned out the garage and said why not another shot. 
 

I tried wallowing out the hole I made with focus on the thinner side hoping to break it. I then tried to drill some more and the stuck part moved!  I switched to a left hand bit and tried again. At this point it was loose enough to take it out with some needle nose pliers. I took a magnet and got all the bits out. The I blew it out with compressed air. Ran a 7/16-20 tap in and surprisingly most of the threads were intact and I just cleaned them up. The tap bottoms out and I attached pics.
 

Waiting on a tool to slap the balancer back on and a new better bolt.  Intend to heat up the balancer a touch and apply some grease to the shaft to make it slide on a littler easier, and to not put as much stress on the repaired threads.

Comments welcome!  Thanks everyone!

 

 

 

 

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/19/22 4:09 p.m.

Better bolt. 
 

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter)
Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) Dork
3/19/22 5:07 p.m.

Excellent ! That's the very best possible outcome.

 

I have the budget Summit brand installer and it has worked great for me for years. 

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/19/22 5:16 p.m.

In reply to Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) :

Dad has taken it to getting that tool. Due Monday and that's when I will see if we have success!  

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/21/22 6:49 p.m.

If I had to guess. I'd say it's torqued to about 50 ftlbs. I didn't wanna push it but it's on there boys!

 

 

 

bonylad
bonylad GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
3/22/22 11:40 a.m.

Round two is about to go down lol.  
 

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