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yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
5/17/19 7:10 a.m.
z31maniac said:
bcp2011 said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

Not to derail the discussion but I read in a book a little while back that the trade off between home space vs commute time is one where people usually make the wrong decision. Shorter commute is almost directly correlated with happiness and an extra room for the visitor is rarely valued (if ever). 

This is specifically why I bought a house just  more from than 5 miles from my office. I'm also able to go in early and leave early. Throw in I only go in 3 days per week, and I spend about 50 minutes commuting (all surface streets) and 35 miles commuting every week.

 

If I happen to leave late, my 10 minute commute in the morning can easily turn into 30+ in bumper to bumper 20 mph traffic. That sucks in a manual.

 

More than about 20 minutes I'm not interested in, that's why I don't move to some cities where I could make more. I'd spend it all on housing and increased commuting time.

 

I live 3.9 miles from work. It takes 15-20 min to get to work or to get home. There's people I work with who live 15 miles away and can arrive in the same commute time as me.  Crazy

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
5/17/19 7:14 a.m.
rezisehtnys said:
yupididit said:
rezisehtnys said:

Besides, even if you're in an automatic you should do the same as it's not good for the transmission to stay in drive with your foot on the brake the entire time.

 

That's news to me. But, why is it bad for the transmission? 

It keeps the friction packs engaged which wears them and increases heat in the transmission, for short stops like stop lights keep it in drive but for parking lot traffic it'd be better going into park.  Plus then you don't have to worry about your foot slipping off the brake pedal for any reason and then rolling into the car in front of you.  "Inching" is even worse for something like a DSG versus a torque converter automatic.  Though all these new cars with stop start it wouldn't matter and you'd just be better off letting it do its thing.

 

I'm gonna have to monitor my trans temps again next time I'm in parking lot traffic. I was in that kind of traffic towing about 7k pounds and basically inching for an hour in drive with my feet riding the brake. Think my trans temps stayed in the same range. And I always watch those when towing with a 4R100 lol

Matt B
Matt B UltraDork
5/17/19 8:04 a.m.
ShinnyGroove said:
ProDarwin said:
ShinnyGroove said:

if I spend $50k on a new car, it's going to get daily driven or at least get 80%+ of my driving miles, with a cheap pickup on standby for bigger jobs.  And if I'm putting substantial commuter miles on it, I'm not driving a manual.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy.

It always amazes me that in America this paragraph doesn't read:

if I am taking a job/choosing a place to life, Im going to make sure I have a low traffic commute, a short commute, or one that does not require a car.  I've wrestled with Atlanta traffic in the Miata on more than one occasion, and I'd rather have a colonoscopy."

FWIW, my office is 10 minutes from my house.  I do have to drive to the airport or out to customers or offsite meetings somewhat regularly, or just to run errands.  Atlanta is a great place to live, but the traffic is pretty much ever-present.  And I don’t want a manual tranny as my daily driver.

That's fair, and I can't really blame anyone for not want to deal with traffic and a clutch.  I'll only throw in my preference as another data point.  I commute in a manual daily, ATL stop-n-go traffic, 30-40 min each way and I have zero problems with it.  If they ever offer the Supra in a manual it will probably go on the list of potentials for me, BMW-ness be damned.  That said, I'm also irked I can't get a Giulia or Charger with a manual to haul my kids around.  I know I'm an outlier that's probably not worth considering on the scale of overall product strategy, but I'll vote with my dollars anyway.

rslifkin
rslifkin UltraDork
5/17/19 8:18 a.m.
rezisehtnys said: 

It keeps the friction packs engaged which wears them and increases heat in the transmission, for short stops like stop lights keep it in drive but for parking lot traffic it'd be better going into park.  Plus then you don't have to worry about your foot slipping off the brake pedal for any reason and then rolling into the car in front of you.  "Inching" is even worse for something like a DSG versus a torque converter automatic.  Though all these new cars with stop start it wouldn't matter and you'd just be better off letting it do its thing.

I'll agree with inching being awful for a DSG.  It's easy to forget that a DSG isn't an automatic.  It's a manual but the guy in the passenger seat has the shifter and clutch.  

For an auto, yes, staying in gear while stopped does make some heat due to torque converter slip.  But it's peanuts compared to the heat produced when accelerating hard and should be easily dealt with by the cooling system.  And the clutch packs don't slip and wear while constantly engaged.  If anything, disengaging them and reengaging them by shifting out of gear and back in would cause more wear, although the difference is likely so small it's not worth worrying about.  

red_stapler
red_stapler SuperDork
5/17/19 9:47 a.m.
rslifkin said:

I'll agree with inching being awful for a DSG.  It's easy to forget that a DSG isn't an automatic.  It's a manual but the guy in the passenger seat has the shifter and clutch.  

Now that I've owned one, I'm always amused when people pick the DSG for crawling in stop & go traffic.  I found that you still have to mentally manage the drivetrain in traffic much the same way you do with a conventional manual.

The Prius on the other hand, now that's a car designed to go 2mph.

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/17/19 11:10 a.m.
rezisehtnys said:
yupididit said:
rezisehtnys said:

Besides, even if you're in an automatic you should do the same as it's not good for the transmission to stay in drive with your foot on the brake the entire time.

 

That's news to me. But, why is it bad for the transmission? 

It keeps the friction packs engaged which wears them and increases heat in the transmission, for short stops like stop lights keep it in drive but for parking lot traffic it'd be better going into park.  

This is a bit wrong.  Yes it keeps the frictions engaged... which is good because if they are engaged, they aren't wearing.  When you are stopped, engine RPM is accomodated by the torque converter, which will be adding minimal heat because how much power is the engine putting out?

 

Modern transmissions actually wear out a whole lot less because drive by wire allows the PCM to cut power during a shift, so a smooth shift can be achieved without having to slip the trans a bunch.  Remember the bad old days when you'd see loads of friction material sediment after 30,000 miles?  Those days are LONG gone.

 

Shifting to Neutral when stopped would actually increase wear because of the momentary slippage happening when re-engaging first gear.  Very minimal of an issue, but if you want to split hairs then I have a very fine blade smiley

chandler
chandler PowerDork
5/17/19 11:48 a.m.

On top of that, during ONE of my forays into drivers re-education due to excessive speeding tickets I was told that (this was Iowa, 1997) that it is actually illegal to not be in gear at a stop light. Don’t see that anywhere with a quick google but that’s what they said.

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
5/17/19 12:01 p.m.

The book is big enough to throw at anything. I doubt that specific thing is true, but it doesn't matter because some other minutiae of the law would still be available to the asshat who would try to charge you with something like that. 

NickD
NickD PowerDork
5/17/19 1:40 p.m.
chandler said:

On top of that, during ONE of my forays into drivers re-education due to excessive speeding tickets I was told that (this was Iowa, 1997) that it is actually illegal to not be in gear at a stop light. Don’t see that anywhere with a quick google but that’s what they said.

New York it is technically illegal to put a car (automatic or manual) in Neutral and coast down a hill because "the driver is not in control of the vehicle"

chandler
chandler PowerDork
5/17/19 3:05 p.m.
NickD said:
chandler said:

On top of that, during ONE of my forays into drivers re-education due to excessive speeding tickets I was told that (this was Iowa, 1997) that it is actually illegal to not be in gear at a stop light. Don’t see that anywhere with a quick google but that’s what they said.

New York it is technically illegal to put a car (automatic or manual) in Neutral and coast down a hill because "the driver is not in control of the vehicle"

That’s the wording they used also! Twenty years ago so I was digging to remember how it was worded. 

 

back to your regularly scheduled program 

Rodan
Rodan HalfDork
5/17/19 5:13 p.m.
NickD said:

New York it is technically illegal to put a car (automatic or manual) in Neutral and coast down a hill because "the driver is not in control of the vehicle"

We have a similar statute in AZ... I think that one is actually pretty common.

te72
te72 Reader
5/17/19 8:46 p.m.

I cannot believe I forgot about the 2000GT... D'oh! To be fair, I think of it in the same light as the LFA. It's a work of art, Yamaha was mostly deserving of the credit, it's far, far, far out of my price range, and yet... somehow has a Toyota / Lexus badge on it. Love both of them for very different reasons.

 

z31maniac - Glad to hear something positive about modern BMW turbo engines. Really hoping, genuinely, that they hold up as good as the Toyotas of old do. For what it's worth, stuffing power through a JZ is rarely what kills them. Some newer small - medium frame turbos (Precision 6466 seems to be the common one brought up) hit so hard that they have a habit of bending stock rods a high (600+) torque levels, and of course bad tunes kill anything they're trying to control, but other than that... Toyota created some legendary engines back in the day. That is the legacy that is carried along with this name, mostly for the worse in the court of enthusiast opinion, it would seem.

 

My newest car was a 2001, and while I've driven newer cars, I can't say I've driven a newer automatic. Closest thing I suppose would be whatever that 7-speed dual clutch is in the 458, that thing is fantastic, but, uh, durr. It's a modern Ferrari... So, perhaps autos have finally come to a point where they're acceptible for sporting driving. I can't imagine you'd need to slip a clutch, or clutch kick, or any of those sorts of techniques that help you drive slow, underpowered cars quickly, when you have the sort of torque you have on modern cars.

 

 

Ultracide - I think you're probably onto something about some cars looking better in person than on paper, absolutely. I think it's a matter of proportion. I've shown my wife pictures of kei trucks and vans, and while she thinks they look cute on paper, you should see the excitement on her face when their cute-factor is witnessed in person... I just hope that the Mk5 has even a smidgen of the "wow" factor that the FT-1 had in person at Supras in Vegas! I rarely ogle cars, but I must have stared at that thing for a solid hour.

 

JG - Toyota has a history, starting in the late 80's, of having dark colors with a lot of metal flake  in the paint. The Mk3 Supra had at least three colors that appear black at night, but when you see them in direct sunlight, it's something special. Almost like you're getting two colors of paint in the same car! Imperial Jade Mica, a color found on the Mk4 and LS400 (perhaps others) is the same way, at night it looks black, but it GLOWS green in sunlight, I love it. Looking forward to seeing this blue you speak of...

StuntmanMike
StuntmanMike New Reader
5/20/19 9:28 a.m.

Here for the pictures? That was way too many pictures of an overrated car. The performance maybe significant, but I think Toyota drops the ball when it comes to its appearance.

What I'm more excited about is Mazda's new straight six gas and diesel engines and the rendition of a car that it might contain said engine which looks more like what the Supra should have looked like:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/a27420384/mazda-developing-straight-six/?source=nl&utm_source=nl_rdt&utm_medium=email&date=051019&src=nl&utm_campaign=16849101

MichaelYount
MichaelYount HalfDork
5/20/19 5:00 p.m.

Most of the online trap speed/ET/HP calculators use algorithms from 'back in the day' - when cars had 3 speed automatics or, maybe, a 4 speed manual.  And with longish rear gears, some vehicles weren't in top gear when they went through the lights.  With today's new 8, 9, dare I say it, yes - even 10 speed transmissions, the ability to keep the car in the heart of the torque/HP bands is MUCH better than it used to be.  So it doesn't surprise me that an online calculator says something closer to 400HP.  I don't think it's that the vehicle is under rated and actually has more HP/torque -- it's that with more shifts in the run, a higher level of 'average' torque/power can be applied through the tires to the pavement during the run - resulting in quicker ET's and higher traps than we saw back in the day.   In a perfect world, the algorithm would be updated and ask for info about gearing, number of gears, etc.

Wonder who the first manufacturer will be to offer the Spinal Tap automatic transmission option?   11 speed.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/21/19 3:18 p.m.

Looks like the Supra was quite a bit underrated. Official numbers of 335/365 at the crank.

339/427! @ the wheels. That's quite a bit of twist at the wheels. 

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27543113/2020-toyota-supra-dyno-horsepower/

NickD
NickD PowerDork
5/21/19 3:33 p.m.
z31maniac said:

Looks like the Supra was quite a bit underrated. Official numbers of 335/365 at the crank.

339/427! @ the wheels. That's quite a bit of twist at the wheels. 

 

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27543113/2020-toyota-supra-dyno-horsepower/

They do warn that their torque reading might be a bit on the high side due to the torque converter not being locked up, but still, to make 4hp more at the tires than its rated at the crank shows that this engine is making some steam

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
5/21/19 3:43 p.m.

Yep I saw that part too, still falls in with what we had been saying that the modern BMW engines are underrated to begin with.

te72
te72 Reader
5/21/19 9:07 p.m.
MichaelYount said:

Wonder who the first manufacturer will be to offer the Spinal Tap automatic transmission option?   11 speed.

Lexus seems to be ahead of the curve when it comes to how many speeds are in a transmission, with the LS. They had a 5 speed starting in 1998, if I recall that far back. A six speed followed in 2003 (?) with the LS430. Few years later when the LS460 came out, it had an eight speed... in 2007.I'm drawing a blank on what the LS500 has, likely either a nine or ten speed.

 

However, that said... does it come to a point where you have more gears than uses for them? Personally, I wish my Supra had a REALLY tall (like 0.50 or 0.40) fifth gear. The first four are great for acceleration with the 4.11 rear gear, but it keeps the rpm's up over 3k at highway speeds. Would likely be able to see respectable mpg if it had a longer fifth. Fourth will reach 150mph, so there aren't going to be many situations that I actually NEED fifth for anything other than cruising.

 

On the subject of the Mk5 here, that's a mighty impressive torque output. Bodes well for some breathing mods if the top end of the engine will allow any extra revs.

rslifkin
rslifkin UltraDork
5/22/19 7:58 a.m.

In reply to te72 :

That 5 - 6 - more than 6 progression for gears is about right for what other high end cars did.  BMW went 5spd auto in the 7 series in 95 (93 for some 5 series models), 6spd in 02, not sure beyond that.  

And yes, unless you have an engine with a very narrow powerband, you can definitely hit a point where skipping gears will make more sense than using every one (especially if your trans doesn't shift super fast and it has to back the power off some on the shifts).  But having the extra gears means you'll never have a speed where there's no good gear for a WOT downshift and you can get a wider overall range like you're wanting.  

MichaelYount
MichaelYount HalfDork
5/22/19 8:04 a.m.

Today's 8, 9, 10 speed transmissions developed largely to optimize fuel mileage and meet increasingly stringent CAFE regs....decent overview here -- https://www.motor.com/magazine-summary/need-10-speeds/ with Aisin, Ford/GM and ZF being the big players.

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
5/22/19 1:09 p.m.

So Car & Driver strapped their Supra to a dyno.... (Quoted from Jalopnik)

 

To recap, the Supra packs a twin-scroll turbo 3.0-liter inline-six BMW engine called the B58B30M1. It’s rated at 335 HP and 365 lb-ft of torque. But given that this sports cars weighs in at 3,397 pounds but can do zero to 60 mph in under four seconds, it certainly feels more powerful than that.

C&D’s dyno test, done at Livernois Motorsports and Engineering in Dearborn Heights, Michigan, appears to confirm this. Their Supra came in at 339 HP and 427 lb-ft of torque—at the wheels. It’s not uncommon for a car’s wheel horsepower to be less than what is claimed at the crank, but hot damn, is that torque figure a nice surprise.

ShinnyGroove
ShinnyGroove New Reader
5/22/19 1:25 p.m.

I'm dying to see what can be done to these with a simple intake/exhaust and tune.

Snrub
Snrub HalfDork
5/22/19 1:51 p.m.

Here's some related stuff, regarding the transmission. For the record I'm a die hard manual transmission person, never owned an auto, but I think we need to be fair.

Andy Palmer, CEO of Aston Martin, who claims ZF’s 8HP is lighter, cheaper, and quicker than a dual-clutch transmission. “Ten years ago, [the dual-clutch] still looked like the transmission of the future. Now it is starting to look like the transmission of the past,” he tells us. But the DCT finds refuge in supercars. The added length of a torque converter can be prohibitive in a mid-engine architecture, and precise launch-control programs provide an advantage in acceleration. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a23367341/automatic-transmission-best-zf-eight-speed/

I remember when Audi debuted the 8HP in the A4. More gears don't seem to be a bad thing. According to C&D: Last year, Audi switched from a six-speed automatic to an eight-speed auto, and it has had a transformative effect. Acceleration to 60 mph has gone from a lackluster 6.4 seconds to 5.6.  https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15121087/2012-bmw-328i-vs-2012-audi-a4-20t-2012-infiniti-g25-2012-mercedes-benz-c250-sport-2012-volvo-s60-t6-awd-comparison-tests/

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
5/23/19 8:14 a.m.

Funny Toyota....  your other sporty car sells lot of manuals

https://jalopnik.com/u-s-buyers-still-overwhelmingly-choose-a-manual-for-th-1834945061/amp

But keep telling how awesome that torque converter is.....  I’m sure F1 will be using torque converters soon and we’ll see them at LeMans soon.

Auto makers, making what they want instead of what the customer wants and then blaming the customer for it....  a recipe for success.

 

 

rslifkin
rslifkin UltraDork
5/23/19 8:20 a.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS :

Dual clutch boxes and such work fine for racing.  IMO, they don't belong in a street car.  Either give me a manual where I've got full control of the clutch, etc. or just give me a well programmed torque converter auto.  

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