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einy (Forum Supporter)
einy (Forum Supporter) Dork
10/20/21 10:34 a.m.

I believe the Honda claim is rev matching takes 430 milliseconds ...

CyberEric
CyberEric Dork
10/20/21 11:01 a.m.

To me the Si and GTI were always in the running for fun small cars. I do think the GTI is leaving the Si in the dust, at least in terms of power.

Tony Sestito
Tony Sestito PowerDork
10/20/21 11:18 a.m.

I let this one sit a little bit, and I have more thoughts:

Last year, I shopped the old Civic Si against its competition when I needed to replace my aging Mazda 3 DD. I ended up driving home a 2020 Kia Forte GT 6MT. On paper, it was similar to the SI in many ways:
-6-speed manual
-Around 200 turbocharged HP
-IRS, upgraded suspension bits and big brakes
-Sport seats
-Decent infotainment with Carplay/Android Auto
-Good fuel economy
 
Biggest differences were that the Si had the LSD and magnetic shocks, while the Kia had LED lighting, a sport exhaust, and cost thousands less in reality due to it being a Kia (on paper, they were near equal). A year and a month later, I don't regret the decision. Car has been great and continues to be a blast to drive.

I think 200hp is the sweet spot for a car like this. Keep the weight under 3k lbs, make it light on its feet, offer good tech, and you'll have a winner on your hands for people who want a sporty DD. You want more? Get a Type R, Elantra/Veloster N, etc.

As for its competition, right now, Hyundai/Kia gets it, and is offering both the Elantra and Forte in multiple performance models to compete with the Si. VW has recently upped the ante with more HP with the GLI/GTI, but they cost a little more to get one comparably equipped. Mazda lost its way with the latest version of the 3; turbo cars are expensive, as are MT-equipped N/A cars, and the N/A manuals are not nearly as fun to drive as they used to be. The US automakers have nothing at all to offer here in the States, so they are out. Toyota is about 40hp off with the current Corolla, but is trending in the right direction, offering some handling packages for the sedan. And Nissan could've had something with the Sentra, but they overpriced it and it was half baked at best, so that's gone. This class of car is dwindling, so again, I'm glad that Honda is still a player. They set the bar for everyone else, so it will be interesting to see how the new Si affects the segment.
 

APEowner
APEowner GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
10/20/21 11:25 a.m.

I like the looks and if it really handles better than the last version it should be a great driving car.  Loosing 5hp on top and fattening the torque curve should make it more fun to drive and might even make it faster.

I like 4 doors for a street car so the lack of a two door hatchback doesn't bother me but I totally get why someone who's nostalgic for the hot hatch Civics of yore would be disappointed.

 

Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter)
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) Dork
10/20/21 11:34 a.m.
APEowner said:

I like the looks and if it really handles better than the last version it should be a great driving car.  Loosing 5hp on top and fattening the torque curve should make it more fun to drive and might even make it faster.

I like 4 doors for a street car so the lack of a two door hatchback doesn't bother me but I totally get why someone who's nostalgic for the hot hatch Civics of yore would be disappointed.

 

I bought a brand new CRX SI in 1987 and Mrs. Snowdoggie drives a new CRV, but this just doesn't do it for me. A two door hatchback would be nice as would a new Del Sol.

Probably why I went on down the street to the Ford Dealer for an Ecoboost Mustang.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/20/21 12:18 p.m.
MadScientistMatt said:

If you want to be really nitpicky:

At any rate, Honda also notes that the Civic gets the same rev-matching system used in the Civic Type R, capable of a “430 m/s response time.”

430 meters per second is 961 miles per hour. Exactly what in the rev-matching system is moving at supersonic speeds?

The electronics?

trucke
trucke SuperDork
10/20/21 3:37 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
MadScientistMatt said:

If you want to be really nitpicky:

At any rate, Honda also notes that the Civic gets the same rev-matching system used in the Civic Type R, capable of a “430 m/s response time.”

430 meters per second is 961 miles per hour. Exactly what in the rev-matching system is moving at supersonic speeds?

The electronics?

My Type R has the rev-match and it works okay.  The first time I drove the car was like 'what the @#$% was that?'  Turned it off!  Once you're in the lower gear, the car reads the gear and blips the throttle.  Seems like it always overshoots a bit on the rpm's making it a bit of a challenge to be smooth.  But then again, I turned it off so I really don't have any practice with it.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
10/20/21 4:26 p.m.

In my mind, the Integra will have the same mechanical specs. So, Civic Si or Integra? Hmmm. A five-door Civic Si would be pretty cool. 

einy (Forum Supporter)
einy (Forum Supporter) Dork
10/20/21 5:07 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

In my mind, the Integra will have the same mechanical specs. So, Civic Si or Integra? Hmmm. A five-door Civic Si would be pretty cool. 

I totally agree.  I just hope the "rev hang" issue is gone, as that was a huge detractor on the 10th gen Si that I previously owned.

Woody (Forum Supportum)
Woody (Forum Supportum) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/20/21 5:13 p.m.
dculberson said:
Duke said:

*ahem*

 

Less power.  Fewer horsepower.

 

Thank you.

 

Interesting. I never thought about it. "Fewer" is used if the thing is countable, but you're not counting horsepower, you're measuring it. According to dictionary.com, "Less is used for singular mass nouns." So you could say "fewer horsepowers," but you would say "less horsepower." Since we don't pluralize horsepower, less is indeed correct, in my opinion.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/fewer-vs-less/

 

Less horsepower, fewer ponies. 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
10/20/21 5:23 p.m.

In reply to einy (Forum Supporter) :

You know, that never bothered me with our long-term Civic Si. In fact, I offered to buy the car when the loan ran out. At the same time, a friend offered me a smoking deal on his car--another yellow Si coupe. His price was very fair. But this all went down like the second week of Covid, and since I didn't know what the future held I passed on both cars. 

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/20/21 7:11 p.m.
Tony Sestito said:

. VW has recently upped the ante with more HP with the GLI/GTI, but they cost a little more to get one comparably equipped.

I'm not sure how prices have adjusted in the past 3 years, but in 2018 when I bought my GTI (SE, with sunroof, big brakes, LSD, 6MT, upgraded audio, etc). I paid $28k out the door (including taxes, tags, etc). I looked at that year's Civic Si and I think they wanted $32k for it (not including taxes, tags, etc).  Even for the SAME price, the 2018 GTI was simply a better car. I'm not sure if VW has jacked the price on them due to 3 years of inflation or whatever, but I suspect a "comparably-equpped GTI" is still probably somewhat cheaper in actual price (maybe not MSRP, since Honda never seems to drop prices). Hell, I think a 2018 WRX was about the same price they wanted for an '18 Civic Si when I looked. 

Honda still seems to think people will pay top dollar for the name, even though in most respects (other than reliability?) its competitors like the GTI (and others) give similar or better performance and features for less dollars. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/20/21 7:43 p.m.

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

Honda people pay top dollar for the name.  I handle my Bill's toupee and my moustophe maintaining Hondas.  Ever see someone dump $5-6k on a 200k mile 15 year old... anything that wasn't an enthusiast niche vehicle?

 

(In other news, I'm getting rather quick at J35 piston ring replacement, but Odysseys kinda suck for room to work)

Woody (Forum Supportum)
Woody (Forum Supportum) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/20/21 7:47 p.m.

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

I don't think that I qualify as a Honda fanboi, but I see Volkswagens as 100k mile cars , whereas I expect Hondas to go 280k. 
 

Volkswagens look great and have nice interiors though. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/20/21 7:52 p.m.

In reply to Woody (Forum Supportum) :

I AM a VW fanboy, and I wouldn't drive any VWAG product with a timing chain past its warranty period.

It's not specifically the chains that are the problem, it's all the other things that came with them, not just on the engines but electronically as well.  It's a good litmus test, like counting the number of bolts on a GM rearend's diff cover.

 

I especially like how they recognized that German manufacturing has never figured out how to make rubber hoses that don't biodegrade audibly, so they replaced everything with plastic lines... that also biodegrade audibly.

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
10/20/21 8:15 p.m.

There's a reason I bought mine the year VW offered the 6/72k limited ;) I don't really trust VWs either, but that said it's been flawless for the first 3/36k so far. I also don't really believe that Hondas today have the same multi-decade reliability they did back in the 90s, YMMV. 

itsarebuild
itsarebuild Dork
10/20/21 8:55 p.m.

In reply to Tony Sestito :

I agree with you on the forte GT. I wandered into one waiting for a table to open at an adjacent restaurant and was amazed at how the fit and finish has improved. Unfortunately this was late COVID and few manual GT's were around and the one I sat in was unfortunately red and owned by a dealer with a sizable MSRP markup.

 

I read that the new forte is going to be an SUV thingy for 2022? Is that right or bad info? I hope bad info

einy (Forum Supporter)
einy (Forum Supporter) Dork
10/21/21 5:30 a.m.
irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:

I looked at that year's Civic Si and I think they wanted $32k for it (not including taxes, tags, )

The 2020 Si sedan that I bought had a list price of $25,200 plus $930 destination.  There were no options or packages offered beyond that, other than Honda accessories.  

Tony Sestito
Tony Sestito PowerDork
10/21/21 8:37 a.m.
itsarebuild said:

In reply to Tony Sestito :

I agree with you on the forte GT. I wandered into one waiting for a table to open at an adjacent restaurant and was amazed at how the fit and finish has improved. Unfortunately this was late COVID and few manual GT's were around and the one I sat in was unfortunately red and owned by a dealer with a sizable MSRP markup.

 

I read that the new forte is going to be an SUV thingy for 2022? Is that right or bad info? I hope bad info

The 2022 Forte is just a refresh of the current car. They changed up the front and rear fascias, made some changes to the interior/infotainment, and trickled down some of the safety tech from the GT2 package to the lower models.

Here's the 2022 GT:

Here's my 2020 GT:

I think mine looks less busy up front, and I like the headlights better.

Tony Sestito
Tony Sestito PowerDork
10/21/21 8:42 a.m.

In reply to irish44j (Forum Supporter) :

You make some good points. I've actually tried to buy a Civic Si twice now, back in the Fall of 2011 and the Fall of 2020. Both times, I was met with sky high prices, "Adjusted Market Value" BS, and no deals or incentives. Dealers basically put them out there at whatever price they wanted and people would buy them regardless of the price. Every other car manufacturer in the segment was open to wheeling and dealing with incentives and discounts, but not Honda. They know someone will pay the price. Even the Kia dealer tried the "there's no incentives on the GT" dance, trying to "pull a Honda" and I still walked out of there with heavy discounts.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
10/21/21 8:52 a.m.

I paid 22 OTD for my Veloster.  In retrospect I don't know that I would compare it against an Si.  The lack of a LSD is a big deal.  (then again, the lack of a hatch in the Si is a big deal too)

The Civic Sport may be more comparable on paper, and it stickered at $21,450.  This is probably the comparison point I would use for the Forte GT.

 

 

Hyundai should offer a Torsen in all their turbo FWD manual 'sporty' cars

 

BLRB
BLRB GRM+ Memberand New Reader
10/21/21 11:05 a.m.

In reply to Tony Sestito :

This is true when I was Civic Si shopping.  Although there was no up front ADM, they all had $2K in dealer fees and accessories.  I ended up getting 2 offers to buy $1K below MSRP after a month of shopping around the state.  Luckily, I got it before the supply chain madness prices.  

dj06482 (Forum Supporter)
dj06482 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
10/21/21 12:49 p.m.

As the current owner of two Hondas (and recent former owner of a third), they definitely don't have the multi-decade reliability they had in the 90s that made them famous.  They can be solid, but definitely have their issues like everything else.  The newest Odyssey and Pilot have a lot of issues, but I don't follow anything else to be able to compare them against another brand of new SUV/minivan.

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter)
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/21/21 1:18 p.m.

If I have a certain amount of energy in the morning, but less energy by the evening, do I have fewer energy or less energy? Hmmmm. Or is my energy level reduced? Or perhaps diminished? My wife would know, she's the grammar nazi. 

pinchvalve (Forum Supporter)
pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/21/21 1:20 p.m.

Oh wow, do you capitalize nazi? Do you show them the respect? Is that a formal name in that sentence?

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