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birdmayne
birdmayne GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/15/22 2:51 p.m.
thatsnowinnebago said:

In reply to birdmayne :

Easy win if no one else shows devil

Can all but guarantee a podium finish at that point

birdmayne
birdmayne GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/15/22 3:36 p.m.

But in all seriousness, I'll participate in as many local events as possible. Is there anything you need from us, as racers, to assist in making this happen?

RRLChris
RRLChris New Reader
3/15/22 6:58 p.m.
birdmayne said:

But in all seriousness, I'll participate in as many local events as possible. Is there anything you need from us, as racers, to assist in making this happen?

First of all, we appreciate your support and seeing our intentions for what they are. The way you and other racers can assist us is by coming out to race. We are ready to go! This is a pure grassroots effort with grassroots aim and simplicity. We hope to see you soon!

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/15/22 7:13 p.m.
RRLChris said:
Javelin said:
RevolutionRacing said:

In reply to kevlarcorolla :

Hankook is our tire sponsor. they built a page specifically for us for our racers to buy tires from.. www.rrltires.com. 

Which no longer works because they are not your sponsor...

Interesting because that is not what the contract says. Thanks for the heads up...I'll have to connect with them.

There has been substantial effort to derail the birth of this series. This is not the livelihood of any of the partners and we are not looking to make it our livelihood. This is why we are offering things like cash prizes and race credits. We are also not looking to eliminate the existence of any other series. Our intent is to coexist with all others in the regional racing community. We simply want to offer a different endurance racing experience for racers in the northwest, as we have heard from teams they would be interested in other options. If there proves to be no demand for an alternative then we will assess and move along....pretty simple. If racers are interested in another option they will have to come out and give us a try. If they don't they won't have options.

Your product is not the issue, your operation is. The racing, classes, and events all sound great! The problem is you have consistently mis-represented your series, mode of operation, and even your founding. You absolutely did cold call the entry lists for LuckyDog, and you have all sorts of attornies involved with the proceedings now. PIR kicked you from the schedule, did you ever refund the teams? Or is that part of the lawyering up as well? Your "sponsor" site redirects now and Hankook has 0 official interaction with you.

So stop the smoke and mirrors and just come clean. Admit all the shady stuff, apologize to Cathy and settle the dispute with LD, refund the teams that paid for your canceled PIR event, and just be up front about running this. Racers, especially GRM racers, value honesty and transparency, not all this *gestures wildly* stuff you are pulling.

RRLChris
RRLChris New Reader
3/15/22 11:52 p.m.

@Javelin, you don't know me at all so I don't know how you can so confidently question my integrity. If you knew me you certainly wouldn't. It's clear you are unwilling to hear the truth so I will not attempt to sway you, but I will address your accusations with the truth for others. Your slander can't go unaddressed. I recommend you check your sources and verify information before spewing misinformation on a public forum. 

1. Regarding your assertion that we cold called the Lucky Dog entry list: This insinuates we somehow obtained our information nefariously. The email list we have and use belongs to one of our partners, Tom Pritchett. Tom has run Turn2 Motorsports for over a decade and has hosted MANY test 'n tune events for racers. Tom obtained his email list from the events he has run as the owner of Turn2. We filtered his email list down to registered drivers of his test 'n tune events over the last five years and emailed those people to let them know about this series. Like I said before, this is a pure grassroots effort and we wanted racers to know our intentions. We obtained nothing from Lucky Dog, either legitimately or illegitimately. 

2. Regarding your assertion that we have "all sorts of attornies (sic) involved with the proceedings" and that we are "lawyering up": I have no idea what "proceedings" you are talking about. The RRL has not hired an attorney for anything. As I said before, this is not a livelihood venture for any of us involved. We are racers and that is our focus.....we are not litigious. 

3. Regarding your assertion that PIR kicked us off the schedule: This is not true. We made the call to cancel this race and let PIR know this. We did so because we did not feel we had a sufficient field of cars to make this a great experience for the race teams that registered. We have no intention to just take the hard earned money of people without delivering what they expect. We wanted to go to Portland later in the year, but March was the only dates we could get. Nascar coming this year has really impacted PIR's schedule. Mid-March in Portland is tough for any series, let alone a brand new series just starting out. 

4. Regarding your assertion we have not refunded teams: This is not true. Every team that has registered for any of our events has either been refunded or provided race entry credit to another race. I have no idea what your source is, but if you talk to any team that has registered I'm sure they will tell you the truth. 

5. Regarding your assertion that Hankook has "0" official interaction with the RRL: Attached are snippets of our contract with Hankook Motorsports. I am reluctant to post even these snippets for obvious reasons, but because our character and intentions have come into such question it seems necessary. On that note, I spoke with Danny from Hankook Motorsports today. I learned he was highly pressured by Cathy to disassociate his company from us. He sees the differences between RRL and Lucky Dog and believes there is room for us to coexist, but he also obviously acknowledges the massive amount of tires he has sold to Lucky Dog. The bottom line is Danny wants no part of the drama. Neither do we. See below for snippets:

You claim we have "consistently misrepresented your series, mode of operation, and even your founding." These assertions are vague and I'm not sure how to respond, other than to say it's not true. You also suggest we "admit the shady stuff, apologize to Cathy and settle the dispute with LD". There is nothing "shady" to admit, but I acknowledge we have made some mistakes along the way as this is a completely new venture for us. The mistakes we made were posting our initial rule book prematurely....we did not proofread it well enough and there were too many similarities to the Lucky Dog rule book. Cathy immediately called us out on this, and we immediately apologized and took it down for a massive and thorough revision. Early on we also prematurely posted some social media content that was quickly taken down when we realized the errors. Lastly, we used images that we believe we were entitled to use. These images were purchased without any disclaimers regarding any limitations of use. However, the photographer believed our use of the images was inappropriate. We have taken proactive steps to address this with the photographer. 

Like we have always said, our intention with this series is to give racers, including ourselves, another racing option. We do not want to be another Lucky Dog or a replacement for Lucky Dog. We welcome all model years of cars; we class cars by simple specs rather than lap times (because lap times can vary widely from driver to driver); we don't limit lap time; we encourage drivers to drive to their full potential safely. We understand the rule book issue was a big deal for Cathy and we immediately took corrective action and apologized for it. We've all raced there and have enjoyed our experiences there, but like several other teams, we have outgrown the spirit of Lucky Dog. The fact is we were told many times by Lucky Dog to go elsewhere. Unfortunately, the racers who have outgrown the series, or want to try something a bit different, have had no other options until now. 

I have been as transparent as I can possibly be in telling our story. This is my last post to address the inaccurate perceptions that exist. 

 

 

 

 

 

Driven5
Driven5 UberDork
3/16/22 10:49 a.m.

In reply to Javelin :

You and kevlarcorolla are making some pretty bold claims that would seemingly require significant amounts of insider information. Are these based on publicly available and/or independently verifiable information, or is this second and third hand information (and potentially speculation) through shadow sources on the grapevine? Presumably any legal filings should be available online... Can you point me towards them?

Honestly I have no skin in this fight, as if this series has any hope of survival this year, the first race would almost have to occur before our earliest ability to enter... And we've got a long way to go before outgrowing Lucky Dog. But right now all that's available to us potential racers in trying to find the 'truth' (that typically lies somewhere in the middle) is first hand information with a vested party, and seemingly second/third hand information that for all we know is just as likely to be originating from an 'equal and opposite' biased party.

iansane
iansane Dork
3/16/22 11:10 a.m.

I want to go fast.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/16/22 11:18 a.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

I have no skin in this game as I do not race enduros. I am however well connected with those who do and was in attendance at the very first ChumpCar race (which happened at PIR) and the start of Lucky Dog. I have personally worked on a number of enduro cars and know literally dozens of racers across teams and series. I was also the alternate pick for PIR Track Manager and have connections there. The information I am getting is coming from racers themselves, who do not want to attach their name to it as if RRL takes off they don't want to be black listed. Some of what I said is easily independently verifiable (PIR event no longer on the schedule, RRLTires link no longer working, no official Hankook sponsorship is found anymore) and others RRL admitted themselves (such as cribbing the LD rules and using photographs commercially without permission). Please feel free to contact Cathy at LD or the teams posting publicly about refund issues if you want to verify the other claims.

I want to be clear though, I do not wish RRL any ill will, nor do I wish them to fail. The PNW has a plethora of locations to race and clubs to do it with but there's always room for one more. I would love to see them succeed and provide another style of racing. I just want them to be honest.

kevlarcorolla
kevlarcorolla Dork
3/16/22 12:12 p.m.

In reply to Driven5 :

Like Javelin I don't want a new series to fail but feel if I have insider information regarding possible issues it should be made just as a heads up to others.

 I race in LDRC but on the other side of the continent,not going to pin point my intel but they are regularly in talks with Cathy.

 Not mentioned is I believe another party is involved behind the scenes that was heavily involved with LDRC and left/asked to leave after causing controversy.

 If any of my info is out of line I truly apologize,I've left out all names involved to minimize any impact if I am wrong.

Hopefully all gets sorted and moves forward.

RRLChris
RRLChris New Reader
3/16/22 12:18 p.m.

In reply to Javelin :

If you could point me to the location where teams are posting publicly about not getting a refund I'd appreciate it. All teams have either been refunded or given future race entry credit. If a team now wants a refund in lieu of future race entry credit we'll be happy to refund them. All they need to do is ask.

We entered into this venture very tepidly because we knew it would be an undertaking and all we wanted from it was a place to race. I'll say it again, this is not our livelihood. We believed the racing community would welcome another option and never imagined our presence could or would cause a stir. We naively thought racers would appreciate our effort to offer something else because we knew nobody else would. When this becomes too much hassle and drama for us we'll go sprint race and make long hauls for enduros. This not a battle for us and we didn't enter into it with fighter's mentality. When your mere existence and a few novice mistakes generate attacks on your character, the passion for racing itself erodes. We won't allow our passion for racing to erode. 

It's also interesting to me that the birth of Lucky Dog came from Chump and originated from an actual Chump employee. It was good for the racing community and people supported the need for growth and change. I think the circumstances are somewhat similar here. And because we have made and acknowledged some novice mistakes does not mean we are dishonest. 

RRLChris
RRLChris New Reader
3/16/22 12:46 p.m.

In reply to kevlarcorolla :

We talked to that other party about working for us. There was a lot of discussion about the vision for something new and different and how we could make that happen. He has a ton of passion for racing too. As talks progressed we had differences in vision, execution, and terms. We didn't feel comfortable moving forward so a formal working relationship never materialized.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/16/22 12:54 p.m.

In reply to RRLChris :

Again, and I apologize to others because this like beating a dead horse, you aren't getting it. Your CONCEPT is fine, great even! You do not need to defend that or your passion. There absolutely is room for RRL to coexist and thrive up here. Nobody is saying that you are trying to cause a stir. It's not your existence that's a problem, it's the initial steps you took to get there and your lack of transparency about it that has people upset with you, especially Lucky Dog. When LD started from CC, it was with full knowledge and transparency from CC and a clean sheet with a different concept. Starting RRL from within LD without their knowledge or consent and utilizing their knowledge and resources is what started the hot water. If you had just started from a clean sheet I think you would have gotten nothing but positive feedback and praise, but you did not. Copying another league's copyrighted rulebook is not a novice mistake, and I think finally publicly admitting it here that you did so is a good first step towards righting this thing. I appreciate your willingness to continue to engage and correct things, and I wish you success. Hopefully you get Hankook back and your first event happens soon. I know a number of LD teams that wish to race both series that do not want to be banned from either, so making sure that you and LD have your stuff worked out is paramount to your success.

RRLChris
RRLChris New Reader
3/16/22 1:40 p.m.

In reply to Javelin :

Yep, a dead horse. We will certainly agree to disagree that RRL started from within Lucky Dog. Regarding the mistakes we made, nobody ever publicly asked. Any individual conversations we have had with people have always been transparent and consistent with what I posted here. So the notion that we have been attempting hide something until now is off base. We're glad this article and forum has afforded us the opportunity to get our story out there.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/16/22 2:16 p.m.
RRLChris said:

In reply to Javelin :

Yep, a dead horse. We will certainly agree to disagree that RRL started from within Lucky Dog. Regarding the mistakes we made, nobody ever publicly asked. Any individual conversations we have had with people have always been transparent and consistent with what I posted here. So the notion that we have been attempting hide something until now is off base. We're glad this PAID ADVERTISEMENT ARTICLE and forum has afforded us the opportunity to get our story out there.

Just so we're clear and transparent wink

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/28/22 6:56 p.m.

And to wrap this whole drama up with a bow, RRL emailed everyone that they were closing as of today and all events are canceled. If you've paid them money and not gotten a refund yet, I would get on that. They did say that they would refund everyone in their email, so it shouldn't be an issue. 

Ksteckba
Ksteckba
3/28/22 7:10 p.m.
Javelin said:
RRLChris said:

In reply to Javelin :

Yep, a dead horse. We will certainly agree to disagree that RRL started from within Lucky Dog. Regarding the mistakes we made, nobody ever publicly asked. Any individual conversations we have had with people have always been transparent and consistent with what I posted here. So the notion that we have been attempting hide something until now is off base. We're glad this PAID ADVERTISEMENT ARTICLE and forum has afforded us the opportunity to get our story out there.

Just so we're clear and transparent wink

Check out this clear and transparent mission statement from Lucky Dog...

Yet many racers in lucky dog are just lifting and coasting half the lap instead of racing, in order to meet unreasonable lap time limits (which must either be guessed by folks who aren't racers themselves, or which are selected to discourage skilled driving and/or actual racing). These people are safely driving harder at HPDE days than they are in an actual race! This is not an exaggeration. Some tracks are actually getting faster but the LD lap time limits are getting slower year to year (look at the Ridge after repaving, for example)?
 

I don't understand where the actual racers have disappeared to in this whole ordeal. It is clear where the venom is actually coming from, and it wasn't RRL. The truth of the matter is that there was plenty of room for both LD and RRL. RRL was a hope for many of us for real endurance racing, and LD is just about having fun with friends at the racetrack (which is totally fine. Not everyone is into racing, and I support that, unless it forcibly prevents us from enjoying some real racing).

And then the complete crap about people not getting refunded? One of the RRL organizers has (as previously stated) been running a successful track day org for many years. Does anyone actually believe that he wouldn't make sure people are refunded? If so, they have no knowledge in this realm. This further clarifies where the venom and shady character is coming from. 

If I appear upset, it is because I am. I actually wanted to compete in a local endurance racing series, and it was all there until some people felt threatened because they are only in it to make money off of a somewhat false image of racing. These (RRL) are good guys, and I was proud of them for going out on a limb to give us a chance, because some of us actually want to race. Thank you Tom, Chris, and Adam for trying to make something fun for real team endurance racing. Contrary to what you are seeing in comment threads like this, there are many of us that greatly appreciate your attempt and do not care if some mistakes were or were not made along the way. We know what you were going for. I'm sorry it turned into such an attack.

Matthew Kennedy
Matthew Kennedy GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/28/22 7:26 p.m.

In reply to Ksteckba :

So why not bring a slower car? We've intentionally not made the car faster. It's cheaper that way too!

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/28/22 7:26 p.m.

In reply to Ksteckba :

FYI, troll accounts don't last long here. I sure hope you aren't associated with RRL.

Nobody said ANYTHING about their mission, which was awesome. There's no problem with the racing, or their existence.

They absolutely did copy and paste LDRL's copyrighted rulebook, and admitted it. That's where the problems started. If the organizers had just been up front with LD from the beginning, then I think that they'd be running a successful season right now.

Breaking the law and having it pointed out is not an attack, it's just a fact. I don't know how to make this any clearer and the fact that they keep bringing up racecraft and rules instead of laws, copyrights, and transparency shows why they folded.

Ksteckba
Ksteckba New Reader
3/28/22 8:24 p.m.

In reply to Matthew Kennedy :

So then you're "racing" against cars that are just sandbagging? That doesn't fix anything...

Driven5
Driven5 UberDork
3/28/22 8:39 p.m.

In reply to Ksteckba :

Did some here take issue with some of the organizers noted actions? Absolutely. Did some here share hearsay that may or may not have been based on potentially incomplete and/or biased information? Sure. Did anything in this thread physically contribute to the failure of RRL to launch? Not in the slightest. 

As far as I can tell, the only people here that I'm aware of being actually influenced by this thread that could have had any direct impact on RRL, were the group of us who have formed a new team and would have gladly participated had they managed to pull it off. Looks like we'll just have to intentionally stick with something slow enough to race flat out against others racing flat out in LDR... Which should help us keep costs in check too. I'd rather get good racing mid-pack than turn it into a TSD rallying at the front of the pack... Perhaps that's all by design though, and that the problem is less with the sanctioning body and more with the racers choosing to escalate raw performance in a self-defeating progression.

It does unfortunately put a damper on some of my future development ideas that would have been more RRL-centric. Oh well, maybe they can still be applied advantageously to a somewhat more restricted LDR-only car.

Ksteckba
Ksteckba New Reader
3/28/22 9:04 p.m.
Javelin said:

In reply to Ksteckba :

FYI, troll accounts don't last long here. I sure hope you aren't associated with RRL.

Nobody said ANYTHING about their mission, which was awesome. There's no problem with the racing, or their existence.

They absolutely did copy and paste LDRL's copyrighted rulebook, and admitted it. That's where the problems started. If the organizers had just been up front with LD from the beginning, then I think that they'd be running a successful season right now.

Breaking the law and having it pointed out is not an attack, it's just a fact. I don't know how to make this any clearer and the fact that they keep bringing up racecraft and rules instead of laws, copyrights, and transparency shows why they folded.

Where do you come up with me being a troll? I am genuinely heartbroken that a real opportunity for competing was crushed. I'm not some anonymous person hiding behind a username. My name is partially in my username - Kevin Steckbauer. So, I don't know where you are pulling that assumption (along with your general attitude). Who are you?

I'm not associated with RRL, but like many people in the track community here I consider the guys attempting to start it up to be friends, and I do not like how you are mischaracterizing them as people. I've seen so many wonderful things, and huge generosity come from them.
 

My reference to the LD mission statement is that it is dishonest. You put them up on a pedestal as if they have created some novel concept. They do not even support their own mission statement. So where is the judgement for that? I can't just sit here and watch seemingly fake people like you attack real people that I respect. 

The whole RRL philosophy was a different racing ruleset to avoid stifling real racing. You keep harping on about the other rules, but did they fix the issue or not?? Get over it man. Are you a benefactor of the LD business or something? If so, you guys won, we will have no real endurance racing series here. Congratulations!

 

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
3/28/22 10:20 p.m.

So, this is coming from somebody who has Raced lemons, wrl, and champcar.

 

I am closest with champcar and am thankful to have many friends on the champcar board of directors.  I say that so yall know I have an interest in champcar.

 

Why doesn't champcar do well out west?  Numerous races were attempted with such a poor turnout that the races were canceled.  Same track at other times in the same year are sold or close to sold put.

 

My question is why? I have my thoughts, but want to hear from those that haven't signed up for a champcar race without my bias.

 

Thanks in advance!

hunter47
hunter47 Reader
3/28/22 11:52 p.m.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

think it might be because NASA already runs TREC and their own Endurance Racing events out west? They don't go as far north as the PNW but California makes up 75% of the western US and they run at basically every track in CA. 

Trixi
Trixi
3/29/22 12:07 a.m.

Well.  This has been one of the more fascinating comment threads I've come across in a while.

Sorry Tom. I hope you're well.

birdmayne
birdmayne GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/29/22 12:43 a.m.

Despite never hosting a race, RRL did have a positive impact on at least 7 guys in the PNW, so it's not a total loss.

Thanks guys, hope to see your dreams re-emerge in the future.

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