I drive my own car quite a bit in a spirited fashion so, I have a pretty good handle on it's limits(i think). so I can tell how fast I can go around certain corners and how much gas I can give it on exit.
I have had to drive the wife's car to work the last couple of days. regular tires and stock everything. I have been driving it around those same fast corners and turns. I don't get anywhere near the same speeds on them and I know that I shouldn't be able to. but I have not lost traction at any point. it FEELS like I am at the edge of it's capability though.
Is it possible for me to know the limits of a car I barely drive and almost never take around fast corners? Am I just a pansy for slowing up when it isn't actually at the limit? Or do the same cues that I read on my car to tell when it is at it's limit transfer over to a car that I am not familiar with?
I guess a better question would be. Is there some set of skills that allow me to feel where the limit is, even for cars I have never driven before?
You can develop the ability to "listen" to a car. It's pretty easy to feel the the transition between just driving and properly engaging slip angles which happens long before the tires are actually slipping. If you attend the Challenge you can watch the pro drivers get in cars they've never driven and immediately be faster than the guys who built the car. They have that skill set.
And be careful. It's easy to hurt yourself or someone else playing on public roads.
In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :
I remember riding in a friend's car, hustling around an offramp. I felt a little uneasy because my inner ear slash butt-o-meter could feel the tires riding the edge of grip. I said "uhhh..." Friend says "wtf? we're good!" Right as the car breaks traction.
Knurled: Vindicated.
I should note that he totaled that individual car no less than three times in single vehicle collisions. I have totaled a total of zero cars ever.
In reply to Knurled. :
If you haven't totalled any cars, you are obviously driving stuff that is too expensive.
Robbie said:
In reply to Knurled. :
If you haven't totalled any cars, you are obviously driving stuff that is too expensive.
I don't even spin when rallycrossing, anymore...
I have only been in one vehicle collision, when I was 17, and that was mostly because bald tires + no front brakes + fresh snow + testing the grip levels.
SOME FEAR
Because if you have no fear, you aren't driving as fast as you could be.
Those subtle butt dyno readings are a large part of the reason I always sucked at driving video games. If I can't feel what the car is doing all I do is slide out of every turn.
My roommate in college had a Miata and it was my first experience with an example of such automotive perfection. He let me drive it to class one day and was whining about how I was taking it so easy on the car. On the way back from class he "showed me" how to drive it and came about 6" from side swiping a minivan sitting at a traffic light. From then on, I drove to class.
ultraclyde said:
Those subtle butt dyno readings are a large part of the reason I always sucked at driving video games. If I can't feel what the car is doing all I do is slide out of every turn.
Yep you have to drive with your eyes a lot more in simulators. Also with downforce-dependent cars where the limits of grip move greatly with speed, surface smoothness, and slip angle.
You can feel where the edge of grip is, but to do that you have to get near the edge of grip. To know the limits you have to approach or exceed them. If you can't/haven't done so, you can only guess from experience.
For example, at last year's Challenge, I took my first run with pimpm3's Blue Line pickup having only driven it from the pit to the starting line. I had to take a guess at where the limits were. On my first run, I never felt that I got close to the limits and the car's responsiveness suggested it had a lot more grip than I'd guessed. The time was terrible. So on my second run in that car I drove a lot faster and got within 2~3 seconds of pimpm3's time.
In the same event I had to take another guess with another new car, the Free Probe, which hadn't had any suspension tuning. I guessed it would be very similar to my Corolla, being a rather similar car in weight/tire width/power/coilovers etc. That was a good guess about the limits of grip, but the limits were not a safe area to play around in on that car. The first sign of losing grip in that car was either plowing off the course or getting very sideways very fast. This was my second run in the car that gave the pro drivers no end of trouble:
Few factory cars would be so unforgiving, but this is why it's best to find the limits on a closed course.
So, how would I go about developing these skills? is it just a "you learn from experience only" kind of thing? or are there specific things I can do to better recognize the clues that a car gives about its limits?
how do I use this to become a better driver?
Daeldalus said:
So, how would I go about developing these skills? is it just a "you learn from experience only" kind of thing? or are there specific things I can do to better recognize the clues that a car gives about its limits?
how do I use this to become a better driver?
Find a local autocross or Track Night in America. There you can probe the limits of your car, and yourself in a safe- controlled environment. You may think you can drive at the limit on the street--- but you really can't. (not responsibly at least) Head to the track--- or take part in a few High Performance Driver Education sessions. (HPDE)
Driving at the limit is best done in a controlled environment. Regardless of how good a driver you think you are on the street---- autocrossing or a track day will help you get better and safer. You'll also have a ton of fun!
I might been a little unclear there. My intention was to figure what I should do when I am at a autocross that would help me improve on course. specifically what can I do to better recognize the limits of whatever particular car I am autox'ing are?
Ok--- sorry about the miscommunication.
It's hard to beat experience as a teacher. The more you play on the edge, the more your body will recognize the subtle clues the car gives when it's getting to that point. Some folks have a better feel for it than others, but everyone should get better with more seat-time.
The next time you are at an autocross, be sure to do a few ride-a-longs with experienced folks who can relay what they are feeling and when they feel it. Each car will speak to you in a different way.
I have had my 96 Impala SS since new. After 120k miles, I knew all of its limits. I picked up a set of free 20" rimz with tires and slapped them on. I almost died many times. It took away all of the predictability. The transition from grip to slip was not progressive. It was either stuck or sideways. Not fun in cattle chutes going around an interstate exit ramp. One new bumper cover later, I switched back to the 17"s
I say that mostly because it really depends on the car. You can get in a Camry and push the limits hard and it will be forgiving. Get in a C5 vette or an AMG and it can kill you if you try right away to find the limits.
So, depending on the car, push it... or don't.
I'd second having someone experienced do ride-a-longs and if they're in a similar car to you and willing to take you as a passenger ride with them.
It's sort of hard to say over the internet what might be most beneficial to you as some folks naturally do things that others might struggle with and vice versa. But if you're willing to post videos of your driving after you attend an event I know plenty of us would be happy to arm chair quarterback some suggestions.
I've found it's helpful to get multiple perspectives also, despite autocrossing for nearly a dozen years now I still find I'm learning things and improving. After you attend some events and start being critical of your own driving you will start discovering things you can do on the street as "practice"
One of the big things I'm trying to re-teach myself how to do is not be so twitchy on the steering wheel, I have a tendency to turn the car in, and then constantly twitch back/forth and make lots of adjustment instead of just letting the car transfer it's weight to one side and "take a set" and then holding that line through the corner.
I've noticed I do it on the street just as much as I do at the track so I've started mentally taking note of it and doing the best I can to turn the steering wheel and hold it there as I travel through the corner (as much as practical while staying within my lane) during snowy conditions when speeds are low I've noticed how much more calmly the car goes through the corner than if I twitch, which means the smoothness is paying off with more grip in the turn, Assuming I can make this a muscle memory that transfers over to the track I hope it will result in more speed through the corners this summer but we'll see.
So Cliffs notes: attend some autocross events, get some input from fast folks, figure out how you can safely work on those same things on the street!
Daeldalus said:
I might been a little unclear there. My intention was to figure what I should do when I am at a autocross that would help me improve on course. specifically what can I do to better recognize the limits of whatever particular car I am autox'ing are?
One of the things you'll learn at a autocross is the almost infinite number of variables that impact where "the limit" is for any particular car. Ambient temp, tire temps, tire pressure, moisture of any type, sealant on the pavement, the roll of the pavement, the age of the pavement, the composition of the pavement, speed, slip angle of the tires, etc., etc., etc. All of this can be learned in a safe, controlled environment. Let me give you a personal example. Towards the end of my first year of autocrossing, I started to think that I was getting used to finding the limit with my vehicle. I was at a "high speed" autocross at a road course and it was raining. The first several trips through a particular corner everything was fine. Fourth trip through, I was in the same gear, same approximate throttle position and roughly the same speed as the first three trips through. Except that it had now been raining long enough to bring up various oils and fluids from the pavement. Quicker than you can possibly imagine, the car spun twice and went backwards off the track. Other than a "brown pants moment", no harm was done to anything other than the track's lawn. Had I had the same experience on, say, a highway "cloverleaf", I would have likely crossed over into the other ramp. I'm currently way better than I used to be at finding the limit in various types of vehicles. Since I started autocrossing and doing track days, I don't look for the limits of a vehicle on the public roads anymore. There are just too many variables.
I've known very few people that can get in a car be fast right off the bat. Most people have to edge up to the limit, especially in a car with high limits. Basically it is a feel. You can learn it to some degree, but some are naturals.
I know a few professional racers with very little feel for instance. They can get in the car and drive, but have no idea what the car is doing or what difference some of the changes made. They have a difficult time telling you if you changed air pressures or if a tire corded. Those that are more sensitive will have an advantage in going fast with little to no seat time. Being able to tell a difference in say half a pound of pressure and being able to act on it is the real skill. Feeling how the weight is moving around the car, what the brakes are doing, are you braking too early, over-slowing the car on corner entry, are you sliding through the apex? These are things you need to feel and be aware of as you drive.
Daeldalus said:
So, how would I go about developing these skills? is it just a "you learn from experience only" kind of thing? or are there specific things I can do to better recognize the clues that a car gives about its limits?
how do I use this to become a better driver?
Drive or own lots of different vehicles, and always drive on crappy tires. I’ve owned over 37 different vehicles in my lifetime, and driven many more than that. I can confidently say that I can adjust to any cars driving potential, in short time. And if it has good tires, well then I guess I just go a little faster than usual.
Edit: by “crappy” I don’t mean “dangerous”, I’m talking about quality, run of the mill stuff.
I had a fellow follow me through an on ramp that was twisty...I was in a 1991 Escort and he was in a brand new BMW Z4 that had all the stuff to just dust me through the corners. I walked away from him without any trouble. I talked to him later and it was his first day and said he went into the ramp as fast as he felt safe while I had been through there nearly every day for 15 years in the same car at least once!
I was sure while he was not!
Bruce
racerdave600 said:
I've known very few people that can get in a car be fast right off the bat. I know a few professional racers with very little feel
Agreed. I always laughed at the Stig on Top Gear. They show him jumping in and laying down a blistering lap, but in truth even the Stig took 8 or 10 laps to get a feel for the car.
