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ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
1/17/22 7:55 p.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
Steve_Jones said:

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

If you really think dealers are calling each other to discuss customers, you really overestimate the effort any car dealer puts into anything. 

Yeah, no kidding.

Also consider that "employee retention" basically doesn't exist for car salesmen.  Something as rampantly illegal as the price collusion described might last a week before a disgruntled former employee turned them in.

 

Turned them in... to who?  Anti-collusion laws are federal, do you think a disgruntled car salesman would sign up to be a whistleblower to the DOJ?  And do you think that the DOJ would even bother to come after small-time car dealers, knowing that it would be almost impossible to prove collusion?

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/17/22 9:27 p.m.
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) said:

Turned them in... to who?  Anti-collusion laws are federal, do you think a disgruntled car salesman would sign up to be a whistleblower to the DOJ?  And do you think that the DOJ would even bother to come after small-time car dealers, knowing that it would be almost impossible to prove collusion?

I dunno about your state, but there are definitely state-level antitrust/price fixing laws in California.

Also, around here there aren't many "small-time car dealers" any more.  Most of them are owned by large corporations, such as Penske Automotive Group.  That's a publicly traded NYSE coporation with an $8B market cap, and that's definitely tasty enough for regulators to investigate.

 

calteg
calteg Dork
1/18/22 9:05 a.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
Steve_Jones said:

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

If you really think dealers are calling each other to discuss customers, you really overestimate the effort any car dealer puts into anything. 

Yeah, no kidding.

Also consider that "employee retention" basically doesn't exist for car salesmen.  Something as rampantly illegal as the price collusion described might last a week before a disgruntled former employee turned them in.

 

 

It happens every single day, more often in small markets. 

Erich
Erich UberDork
1/19/22 11:10 a.m.

One thing I've noticed more frequently lately is some new or near-new, bone stock cars are popping up for sale on enthusiast auction houses like BaT and Cars&Bids. I guess it makes sense - if you're a dealer and inventory is low, make the most of your money and sell at auction. And if you're an enthusiast consumer looking for a specific hard-to-get car, an auction might be the only way to get what you want. 

 

Like, I wonder how many of the Broncos and Type R Civics sold new end up at one of these auction sites. 

Datsun310Guy
Datsun310Guy MegaDork
1/19/22 11:16 a.m.

Yesterday I had a sales guy at a Honda dealer on the phone tell me there's a nationwide automobile shortage and they are not discounting any prices from sticker.  

I replied with a "huh". 

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 PowerDork
1/19/22 11:21 a.m.
Erich said:

One thing I've noticed more frequently lately is some new or near-new, bone stock cars are popping up for sale on enthusiast auction houses like BaT and Cars&Bids. I guess it makes sense - if you're a dealer and inventory is low, make the most of your money and sell at auction. And if you're an enthusiast consumer looking for a specific hard-to-get car, an auction might be the only way to get what you want. 

 

Like, I wonder how many of the Broncos and Type R Civics sold new end up at one of these auction sites. 

This is the kind of stuff that drives me wild. I'm all for the free market and have a disdain for government intervention on most things; but, the car market right now is absolutely ridiculous. 

Honda and Acura dealers are by far the worst offenders with regards to the Type R and Type S vehicles. I was shopping for a TLX Type-S and every single Acura dealer has had a dealer markup of at least $7500 and every single one of those cars has also been sitting on the lot for a hot minute and every single salesperson goes "Well it's a Type-S it's a hot commodity." Like yea and it gets outperformed by a Veloster N in almost every way too and that costs half as much. 

The CTR fiasco from 2017 to now has been a catalyst for a lot of this dealer markup shenanigans IMO. I had the hardest time trying to find a dealer that would sell me a Type R for MSRP. I eventually gave up. Some dealers wanted $5k markup, some wanted $15k, some would take your name and a bid price over MSRP for the chance to buy one. None got my business but I'm sure there were some suckers who were foaming at the mouth to have a CTR and gave in. 

The best thing to do is to not even entertain dealers that play those games. Let them fail like the Big 3 should've in 2008. 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/19/22 11:36 a.m.
DirtyBird222 said:

The best thing to do is to not even entertain dealers that play those games. Let them fail like the Big 3 should've in 2008. 

That's all you can do. Unfortunately, there will always be fools who are willing to pay more than sticker for the latest, hottest thing. It's true in cars, video game consoles, Beanie Babies, Cabbage Patch Kids, you name it.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/19/22 12:29 p.m.

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

Sticker is just a number.  Some people have the mindset that they have a right to buy under sticker, but in the end it is just someone's opinion.

 Bear in mind sticker is not set by the people who are selling the car.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/19/22 1:18 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :

Sticker is just a number.  Some people have the mindset that they have a right to buy under sticker, but in the end it is just someone's opinion.

 Bear in mind sticker is not set by the people who are selling the car.

True enough. But it's at least a starting point. I suppose it can be worth paying over sticker for something on a limited run. But these folks that are paying $10k extra to get a Bronco right now are idiots, IMO. Ford is going to make hundreds of thousands of those things.

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