Autocross is dying

dps214 said:

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) said:

There is also the level of seriousness between participants.

I recall working once, and somebody wiggled a cone. It was still squarely in the box. 

The corner chief told me to reset it, because it *might* have moved a millimeter or two.  I told them to reset it themselves, because it was still in the box, it's ninety degrees and I have a bad knee.

One of the two people in that story is a national champion, and based on that one interaction, they think I'm some kind of filthy casual. Which, I guess in their minds, I am.

Sounds like you shouldn't be a course worker then (and that's fine). But that's the job. If the cone moves (at all), you reset it. I can't tell you how many times I've had that "that cone MIGHT have moved" thought, then went over to check and found it half out of the box. If you're not physically equipped to work course, that's totally fine, but request a different work assignment.

The cone was in the box. I could see it. 

It was more the attitude of  "Go reset that cone because I say to!"  I know it's fine, because I can see it. They can't. Fine, they should go reset it if they're that worried about it and not get in a huff. 

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) said:

dps214 said:

Brett_Murphy (Agent of Chaos) said:

There is also the level of seriousness between participants.

I recall working once, and somebody wiggled a cone. It was still squarely in the box. 

The corner chief told me to reset it, because it *might* have moved a millimeter or two.  I told them to reset it themselves, because it was still in the box, it's ninety degrees and I have a bad knee.

One of the two people in that story is a national champion, and based on that one interaction, they think I'm some kind of filthy casual. Which, I guess in their minds, I am.

Sounds like you shouldn't be a course worker then (and that's fine). But that's the job. If the cone moves (at all), you reset it. I can't tell you how many times I've had that "that cone MIGHT have moved" thought, then went over to check and found it half out of the box. If you're not physically equipped to work course, that's totally fine, but request a different work assignment.

The cone was in the box. I could see it. 

It was more the attitude of  "Go reset that cone because I say to!"  I know it's fine, because I can see it. They can't. Fine, they should go reset it if they're that worried about it and not get in a huff. 

Cones..? Twice I've left my rear bumper cover on the rallycross course and didn't even know it. Both times someone came trotting up to me carrying it before I got out of the car.

A week ago when I told the time keeper that someone lost a fender liner on a corner he just asked me if I'd mind driving back through and pick it up.

Sometimes we use corner workers, but in most cases you self report and clean up what you see. Casual and cooperative. Rallycross or autocross,  I guess it depends on who you're running with.

Autocrosser personality syndrome is a very real thing and is evidenced by the above story. 

I wish we had the ability to do polling of The Hive.  I'd be very curious to know how much time/money competitive drivers have available annually for their respective interests.  I would love to participate in something but I barely have the money available to do slot cars...

In reply to AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) :

Who you are running with makes all the difference.  You can have a lot of fun or be pretty miserable.  It's funny how just a few key people can make a huge difference.  

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

kinda how my local  lot is still fun

It all comes down to the fun being legislated out of new cars. IMO.

In reply to c0rbin9 :

There's a few left out there. Civic Si, Forte GT are a couple of FWD versions then he Frisbee twins, mustangs/camaros. Lots of fun cars still available imo. 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) :

Who you are running with makes all the difference.  You can have a lot of fun or be pretty miserable.  It's funny how just a few key people can make a huge difference.  

That's just life in general. 

I still think the low budget future is SxS. 

With a few modifications you can run them on tarmac and gravel, and a few more mods you can run them wheel2wheel, or do desert racing events. 

If I were an organizer, I'd be all about opening up a class in rallys for SxSes. 

In reply to pheller :

I asked this board and the SCCA about rallycrossing SXS 6-8 years ago and was given an emphatic no, never happen. Not cars and have no place in our clubs.

Yet another boat the SCCA missed. They had a chance to be leaders and settled for an also-ran instead. 

They aren't much cheaper though. A Polaris RZR will set you back $20k-$30k now and they hold their value better than any car on the market. 

Bummer. 

What did/do Formula Carts cost new? 

I just see some serious advantages in a smaller, suspended, cheap platform ala a shifter kart but easier on the body. That's pretty much a Formula car. 

Toyman! said:

They aren't much cheaper though. A Polaris RZR will set you back $20k-$30k now and they hold their value better than any car on the market. 

How tippy are they?  From outward appearance they look like they'd be very easy to roll over.

Yeah we thought a SxS would be the cheap robust easy button for rallycross (they've been legal for a few years now) until we bought one. Pretty sure there's a rally category for them.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Toyman! said:

They aren't much cheaper though. A Polaris RZR will set you back $20k-$30k now and they hold their value better than any car on the market. 

How tippy are they?  From outward appearance they look like they'd be very easy to roll over.

It doesn't matter because now, 6-8 years too late, the SCCA has decided to make a class for them. Naturally, they have done this after every other sanctioning organization did so first. 

With minor suspension tweaks and an AT tire they are fairly stable. 

Which sanctioning organizations? If you're talking about racing series like you posted, not really sure how that's relevant. Just like how we've already established that most road racers aren't interested in autocross, there isn't much crossover there. We had a local SxS racer show up to a rallycross event once...they basically rage quit halfway through the event.

Also having been there and done that now, on the whole allowing them was a bad idea. At the very least the rollover restrictions need to be much more serious (and actually enforced).

In reply to dps214 :

What problems did you have?  There is a Yamaha YZX in my region that generally sets FTD.  He is at proper height for scca rallycross and only has to slow down to avoid rolling occasionally.  He is also on his 2nd or 3rd motor.  It certainly looks fun but I don't think it is any easier to maintain than a mod car.

Toyman! said:

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

Toyman! said:

They aren't much cheaper though. A Polaris RZR will set you back $20k-$30k now and they hold their value better than any car on the market. 

How tippy are they?  From outward appearance they look like they'd be very easy to roll over.

It doesn't matter because now, 6-8 years too late, the SCCA has decided to make a class for them. Naturally, they have done this after every other sanctioning organization did so first. 

With minor suspension tweaks and an AT tire they are fairly stable. 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/3wmINZzy16I?rel=0

 

In practice, they roll, or are so tippy that the owners get spooked.

A prepared race course is far different from a rallycross course.  Rallycross courses are a lot slower and tighter and nowhere near as smooth with respect to rut formation.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

My point being, the SCCA could have been at the forefront of organized events for SxS. We had a dozen SxS owners wanting to rallycross with us and had to turn them away because the SCCA said no. So they left and found other organizations to play with. Two years later our rallycross program vanished for lack of people interested in helping put on the events.

Just like Lemons and Chump Car existed for 15 years before the SCCA considered a similar program. It took 10 years of fighting the grumpy old berkeleyers to get the TT rules opened up to something reasonable. It's a little frustrating to see thousands of people show up for a Lemons race and 50 show up for a club race and know that the SCCA will always be the last to see the future and meet it with open arms. That's the whole reason we went Lemons racing as the Senior Citizens Club of America with a car wallpapered with the GCR, the Tired Hack windshield banner, and Fun With Rules stickers everywhere. 

In reply to Toyman! :

The pushback against the SCCA allowing them for RallyCross is that they could present a liability with respect to rollovers.  A rollover at a RallyCross is a safety event that requires all sorts of paperwork and makes insurance go up.

Side by sides were allowed on an opt-in basis (not a required class at regional events the way Stock/Prep/Mod are) and, to nobody's surprise, they roll, hold up events, cause paperwork, etc.  I fully expect their allowance to be removed at some point.

I will admit to being optimistic that it wouldn't be bad, but it turned out to be bad.

OVR has run at a side by side track and we have to severely curtail the corners to keep speeds down, and run across cuts to make tight enough corners for an RX course.

At the same site, when it was muddy and we had not set up cones yet, and I had a weak engine in the car, I was going well past 60 around the course despite the muck.  Would have been able to go much faster if I felt ballsy enough to upshift.  In the dry I see no reason why I couldn't be hitting 80, which is truly frightening when you have no rollcage 

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

That sounds like the standard reply to why the SCCA doesn't do anything new. I know better than to continue the conversation. Nice to know they haven't changed much. Thanks. 

In reply to Toyman! :

They also severely restricted the Mod ruleset in order to cut down on problems.  A lot of old Mod cars are now no longer legal.

The thing is there's nothing to be at the forefront of. SxS really aren't a good fit for rallycross or anything similar, at least not in vaguely stock form. IIRC allowing them was proposed at least a year or two prior and was rejected by membership. Maybe it could have been implemented in a way that it would have worked, but it would have precluded anyone from just showing up to try it out. Along those lines, allowing UTV tires for all cars was also probably not a good idea.

Our experience ended with the inevitable rollover. In fairness, it was comically fun while it lasted. FTD usually by multiple seconds even still running on the stock tires with basically zero lateral grip. But even with the wide track model and lowered like 4-6" more than was required, it felt sketchy basically anytime you turned the wheel more than a few degrees. We initially lowered it to the legal limit of the rules and my codriver immediately rolled it just messing around in his yard. Part of the justification of it was thinking that it would be robust enough to be basically maintenance free, and it was immediately apparent that that wasn't the case. A front control arm bent before even making it to the first event. Somewhere along the line a rock ironically got stuck in one of the rear wheel scrapers and punched a hole in the inner barrel of the wheel. Just nothing about it was confidence inspiring.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

To be fair, a lot of them were already illegal, but nobody ever bothered to read or enforce the mod rules. Actually that's part of the problem with the SxSes too.

In reply to dps214 :

The height/width restrictions are new and put a lot of cars out.  Things like WRX wagons and other commonly rallycrossed cars are now not Mod legal unless they are lowered or the track widened.  The only way they can run in Mod is if they are Stock or Prepared legal.  (Not singling that particular car out for any reason, it is just one I know off the top of my head)

OTOH, this won't keep people from rolling Stock or Prepared cars, but it helps.

Stock 2.5RS on grass.  Running in PA so the two drivers can run different heats

Not lifting probably kept it from going over.

"Colin" may only be legal because it is being built for Constructors, not Mod, and the Constructors height restriction is to the top of the rollcage, not the top of the car.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to dps214 :

The height/width restrictions are new and put a lot of cars out.  Things like WRX wagons and other commonly rallycrossed cars are now not Mod legal unless they are lowered or the track widened.  The only way they can run in Mod is if they are Stock or Prepared legal.  (Not singling that particular car out for any reason, it is just one I know off the top of my head)

Okay...what am I missing? I just read through the newest version of the rules like three times and the only width/height requirement I see is in constructors class.