Bearing manufacturers?

Lookin at Rockauto for a set of bearings for my engine rebuild

Anyone have any thoughts on these?  I don't need to rebuild another engine in 2-3 years

I am also thinking of a high volume oil pump.  About twice the price as the normal ones that I've found.

Mahle / clevite I thought were the industry standard.

I always worry about high volume oil pumps draining the sump and having the oil in the head.  Not sure how well the big 6 drains back.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

Any thoughts on the tri-metal Vs aluminum bearings?

I could always expand the sump.  Not like there isn't room down there.

I'd go tri-metal every day of the week, myself, but mostly because I've not heard of aluminum being used.

Aluminum ftw.

Most oe have gone aluminum for the past 20yrs. It's much easier on the journal when things go sideways.

Ranger50 said:

Aluminum ftw.

Most oe have gone aluminum for the past 20yrs. It's much easier on the journal when things go sideways.

Does it change anything that this is a 30 year old motor that didn't have significant bottom end changes since at least the 70s?

In reply to Mr_Asa :

No.

FYI-just say no to hv oil pumps. I'd rather have pressure than volume.

What engine, what modifications are you making and what's the application? 

wvumtnbkr said:

Mahle / clevite I thought were the industry standard.

 

I always worry about high volume oil pumps draining the sump and having the oil in the head.  Not sure how well the big 6 drains back.

Once you meet the regulator pressure, it is not flowing any more oil through the engine than a standard pump, it is just making the oil hotter by circulating it around inside the pump more.

Ranger50 said:

FYI-just say no to hv oil pumps. I'd rather have pressure than volume.

Pressure is a function of volume.  Pumps don't make pressure, they make flow, restriction to flow makes pressure.

A high volume oil pump will make more pressure at idle because it is trying to pump more oil into the engine.  A "high pressure" pump has a higher pressure relief valve, nothing more or less.  Although it probably is a high volume pump so that it can get up to pressure.  HV pumps are good for old timey builds where the block is a noodle and the crank is an overboiled noodle and you need large bearing clearances so things don't whack into each other too much, and gosh it is had to find straight 70w racing oil anymore to deal with those .005" bearing clearances...

If this is for an engine getting a turbo for all the low speed grunt, I'd want the HV pump to ensure max oil pressure when the turbo is online.  This has somewhat negative effects at the top end (mainly a little wasted power and added oil heat) but nothing nearly as bad as 15 pounds of boost at 2000rpm with 20psi oil pressure. 

This is why the OEs are going to variable displacement oil pumps and even electric oil pumps.  They want all the flow to keep the bearings cool at high boost/low RPM (because somehow they have a fetish for keeping  revs between 1500-2000) but they also want good economy when the engine is putzing along making only 20hp on the Interstate and they grabbed all of the MPG low hanging fruit.

APEowner said:

What engine, what modifications are you making and what's the application? 

93 F150, 4.9L, mild head massaging, truck E36 M3

Ranger50 said:

FYI-just say no to hv oil pumps. I'd rather have pressure than volume.

I would actually have neither.

High pressure is not better.  Correct pressure is better.  That's why the oiling system is engineered to provide the right pressure and not more.  High pressure just means you'll be pushing open the bypass valve more often and sending unfiltered oil through the engine, and if the bypass fails, you run the risk of exploding the filter.  It doesn't matter if you're making 100 psi of oil pressure, the valve will open around 75.

High volume pumps don't provide any more flow of oil to the system than a regular volume pump.  There are fixed passageways in the oiling system for a reason.  The only way to increase flow is to increase pressure... which has already been mentioned.

The only real benefit to a high volume pump is that 300k miles from now when the bearings get a little worn and the spaces are out of tolerance, the pump can still provide enough flow of oil at the engineered pressure to keep the bearing spaces full.

Anything else is just a parasitic loss of power, the risk of foaming the oil, and an unnecessary thing.  High volume won't necessarily hurt, but it has little benefit.  Hi pressure pumps are designed for someone who is specifically engineering an engine for a different application, like racing with a forged crank and rods where the heat causes more swelling than a casting, or in a situation with high stress loads where they have engineered a different bearing tolerance.  Unless you have specifically machined the crank or selected custom rod/main bearings for a desired performance aspect, a high pressure pump is not typically called for.

Caveats of course for some factory designs that were low on pressure or volume from the start, but my guess is this is for the 300?  High volume if you want, but meh.  I would stick with what worked for Ford for 30 years and their billion-dollar R&D budget.

I haven't kept up with bearing designs for 20 years, so I can't speak with recent knowledge about them.  I do know that Mahle/Clevite was always a good name, but the last time I bought bearings, those were still two separate companies.  Sealed Power does other engine internals well like Pistons, but not sure I've ever used their bearings.

Technically you can increase oil flow by opening up the bearing clearances...

I asked over on FordSix and it was mentioned that aluminum bearings can support more loading, but you don't want to go long on oil changes in order to keep the surfaces clean.

May go with the tri-metal based on that.

Mr_Asa said:

APEowner said:

What engine, what modifications are you making and what's the application? 

93 F150, 4.9L, mild head massaging, truck E36 M3

That's a Clevite TriMetal application for sure. Aluminum is primarily used for cost and environmental reasons in OEM applications and has a lower load capability.  

As far as the high volume oil pump is concerned I'd only consider that if you can't get bearing clearances tight enough and even then you're likely time and money ahead in the long run purchasing a better crank.

Yeah, tri-metal + stock oil pump (or stock-like if factory parts are not available new but quality aftermarket are) is the way I'd fly here.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

This is why the OEs are going to variable displacement oil pumps and even electric oil pumps. 

Which OEMs are trying electric oil pumps now? I always thought that was an idea with a lot of potential - you can have full oil pressure before the engine starts to turn at all, oil pressure controlled by a table on the ECU, eliminate the oil pump gear as a factor in the engine's rev limit (very appealing as the owner of both a 4AGE and an FA20), ECU-measurable engine wear through oil pump duty cycle vs. pressure relationship, and if there is a catastrophic oil pump failure, the ECU might be able to detect it and shut down the engine before the pressure even hits zero.

I imagine that every engine would have the bearing life of a 22RE with this kind of setup.

A 300 Ford six is certainly one of the very finest light duty engines ever built. No need to reinvent anything. Ford got it right the first time. Tri metal bearings and a factory replacement oil pump.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I am pretty sure that every engine with a crank driven oil pump has RPM related issues  I know Audi five oil pumps come apart over 8500 thanks in part to the long whippy crank, and ask Keith about oil pump longevity in BPs with harmonic dampers vs with a solid pulley...

But to answer your question, I cannot remember which engine it was, only reading about it in a tech journal blurb and thinking "Finally.  Well, as long as it continues to work..."

You could do it yourself with an electric motor driven dry sump pump, although for the effort you'd get 95% of the benefit by just driving it with a belt.

And now I am thinking about the duty cycle of an electric power steering pump if it only had to generate 60-70psi or so.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

Back when I was building, tri-metal was the way to go here, but as I said... it's been many moons since I had the latest tech on bearings.