Bizarre which HPDE car thread: Audi TT FWD or widebody Starion?

This is gonna be a strange one...and let me preface this by saying PLEASE don't tell me I should get something else, as both of these cars have been on my personal "list" for ages, and I know neither is fully rational, but I think both are incredibly striking cars (albeit in very different ways) and both would make great HPDE cars with a few key mods. I already have a Honda Fit as a daily that I absolutely love, so assume either of these would solely be for weekend cruising and HPDE use. Also: my current local track is Road America, which is a FAST track, so keep that in mind.

Audi TTs are getting CHEAP, especially the FWD models. I see this as a good thing, as I haaaaaaaate Haldex AWD. Locally the FWD models are starting to show up for sub-$4k. I am aware that they are basically a very pretty GTI 1.8T, but I think they are GORGEOUS. On the flip side, Starions are the cheapest of the 80's Japanese sports cars I oh-so-love, so you can still find a VERY nice one for well under $4k. Bizarrely, the aftermarket is coming back for them after a 10 year absence or so, and suddenly you can find the NLA stuff from aftermarket suppliers once again. I have a feeling prices are going to start rising on them soon because of this...

Both have about 180HP out of the box. Both weigh about 2800lbs. Both handle quite well as they are, and can be easily improved upon. I have driven enough well-prepared FWD and RWD cars not to have any strong preference. Both are capable of more power with some ease, but the approach is very different; on the TT, it's more about replacing all the cheap plastic bullE36 M3 and problem areas to make the advanced 20v 1.8T show its potential. The Starion is basically the opposite; the core drivetrain is very robust in an old-school sense and the massive 2.6L displacement has tons of potential, but the primitive fuel injection and emissions control systems totally hamper the car. Both are extremely easy to make handle well, the TT basically needs a big RSB and the right shocks, whereas the Starion is arguably the best factory setup of the era (other than the dumb recirc ball steering).

Considering where I am in life, I have neither the time nor resources to do a FULL engine build or swap for either; this would basically be a shadetree urban garage building-on-what-I-have affair. But I am experienced from past endeavors and would probably draw the line at head work. The car would not need to be daily drivable and would probably get partially gutted for weight reduction's sake. SO: in this situation, which car would you go for?

Those are 2 cars on my list as well, though I'd personally have to go for an AWD TT. I see the TT as having the potential to appreciate at some point, though probably not the FWD version as much.

Give the prices between the two are comparable, which would take the least work/money to get it where you want to be vs. which would be the most durable event-after-event? I'd tend to think the Starion would win the durability contest, as long as the boost was kept to stock-ish levels?

In reply to petegossett:

Both are pretty darn quick with just intake/exhaust upgrades and supporting mods. Durability? There are many arguments for/against both...but I think either would be pretty robust with an attentive level of care. Personally, I prefer the FWD TT because it's ~400lbs lighter and Haldex AWD saps a lot of power for very little gain, especially on dry surfaces.

If you fit the TT, it is more than just a pretty Golf. The uprights have a much lower balljoint position than other A4 chassis cars, which really helps handling. And the brakes are way good. And it's not nearly as goofy and hard to maintain (in 2016) as a Starion.

If you fit.

I think that they are both very interesting choices and not the usual choices...........so that's a big plus in my book. I don't know much about either as far as upgrades, power etc. I like the Audi better just because I like it better. Great logic there I know. I think the Starion might be easier/cheaper to get more power from but.................i just don't know. Hmmmmm, not really much help here either. I am sure you know this but the Starion was also marketed as the Conquest. Back in the late 80s I ran a RX7 in C stock AutoX. I just never could beat a certain Starion in the same class. No matter what I did I would always be second if that guy showed up! Anyway, good luck in your choice. You can't go wrong with either one.

Starion. Because: looks mean as hell even being 30 years old. Tucks really wide tires. You can SIMPLY install a 4g63 DOHC long block. It's rwd. It's resale value will only go up.

The TY has none of this and if any of these were tried in a TT it would consume enormous amounts of time and money, and still wouldn't sell high. Pass on German. It's the way to go.

Trackmouse wrote: Starion. Because: looks mean as hell even being 30 years old. Tucks really wide tires. You can SIMPLY install a 4g63 DOHC long block. It's rwd. It's resale value will only go up.

4G63 is not that simple, you need a 'wide bellhousing' block that was only offered in a Mitsu pickup (or rebadged Dodge sibling) for a couple of years, and the DOHC head from a DSM. And you'll need to do something custom for the plumbing. But it's certainly not the hardest swap in the world.

Also of note - you can build the G54b to ~280WHP without "too" much difficulty either. I wouldn't do the swap on a runner but a lot of them ... aren't that, anymore. ;)

I believe there are also bellhousing adapters to go from a 1UZ to the Starion transmission, forget who makes them. But it's an option!

I need to head to Toronto one of these days and rescue my Starion from its storage cell.

I vote shop for both and buy the one that best matches your vision. Around here, I wouldn't be able to find a Starquest worth saving period.

The stock starion doesn't handle that well in my opinion. And suspension stuff is still hard to find. So is most aftermarket modifications. You better get a nice cooling setup on them if you're going to HPDE it. The trans is fragile and the stock head flows like poop. And it doesnt rev very well or high really. Best way to get the potential out of the 2.6 is to make it mpi. It's basically a dog of a truck motor with a turbo lol. They do like using the 2.6 in starlets for drag racing down in puerto rico.

I haven't seen a trans adapter to mate the 1uz engine to the mitsu trans (which is a dumb idea anyway).

BTE: I have a Conquest widebody. I love it because it's unique and looks mean as berkeley. It was 1uz swapped at one time. (STOCK) I don't think it does anything particularly well track wise. FC RX7 probably better track choice from that generation. With the said.....StarQuest over the TT

Also, I have a built non jetvalve head with some cams. And a rebuilt trans haha.

yupididit wrote: I haven't seen a trans adapter to mate the 1uz engine to the mitsu trans (which is a dumb idea anyway).

Why is that? Too weak?

I might be wrong on the bellhousing, I was following a build thread a few years ago where I thought the guy bought one from somewhere. He had a bunch of pics of it. But it may have been custom (or he was using a W58.)

Jay wrote:

Trackmouse wrote: Starion. Because: looks mean as hell even being 30 years old. Tucks really wide tires. You can SIMPLY install a 4g63 DOHC long block. It's rwd. It's resale value will only go up.

4G63 is not *that* simple, you need a 'wide bellhousing' block that was only offered in a Mitsu pickup (or rebadged Dodge sibling) for a couple of years, and the DOHC head from a DSM. And you'll need to do something custom for the plumbing. But it's certainly not the hardest swap in the world. Also of note - you can build the G54b to ~280WHP without "too" much difficulty either. I wouldn't do the swap on a runner but a lot of them ... aren't that, anymore. ;) I believe there are also bellhousing adapters to go from a 1UZ to the Starion transmission, forget who makes them. But it's an option! I need to head to Toronto one of these days and rescue my Starion from its storage cell.

Billsautofab does Mitsubishi conversions or call rich @ xcessivemanufacturing. I know they can make it happen. Not that the starquest needs oomph support. Just build the stock engine! 280hp is plenty.

4g63 swaps arent easy. If using the dsm narrow block then you'll need an adapter to run whatever trans to plan on running. Bill Hincher make a 4g63 to r154,w58,t56,th350 kit.

If using the wideblock 2.4 4g64 then you can use the stock ttans but will need to use a dsm head.

Either option: You'll either have to redo the thermostat housing or relocate it because you'll be too close to the back firewall. The intake manifold will be backwards so you'll have to solve that. And you'll have to combine the two harnesses at B38.

I could be missing something, this is from the top of my head.

Anyway, it's not a cheap or easy swap to do. But, it does look right there. Easiest swap is a ford 5.0 then the 1uz (if you buy a premade manual trans kit....Brett Collins or drift motion).

Bill is working on making more trans options for the 4g63 and g54b. For the 2.6 he makes bellhousing for the r154 and t56.

In reply to Jay:

It was probably a w58 or 240sx trans (what I used). Yes, starion trans aint good for more than 300hp or 300ft lbs of tq. I think the 89 trans is a little tougher. The rear ends are tough though. Both the 4bolt and 6bolt diff can handle most things.

^^ The 4G63 (in SOHC, turbo form) was an optional engine in Europe & elsewhere. Do you know if they use a wide block or a different bellhousing?

In reply to yupididit:

Starquest suspension stuff doesn't seem as hard to find as it used to be. Mookeeh went professional and you can now buy pre-modded strut housings, front inserts, etc on eBay... http://stores.ebay.com/101propose/Starion-/_i.html?_fsub=12290015

Jay wrote: ^^ The 4G63 (in SOHC, turbo form) was an optional engine in Europe & elsewhere. Do you know if they use a wide block or a different bellhousing?

I'm not sure. If have to ask some of my Aussie SQ buddies. Sourcing either trans or motor from overseas will proba cost you.

By the way, have you seen how much Starions go fo in Japan? I wish they would sell like that here lol.

If you're looking for a clean one let me know. Best thing is to buy the best running one you can afford!

As much as I talkbtrash about the 2.6 I'm going to be building one starting in a few weeks. First build it as tbi and build a mpi one on the side, running MS.

BTW, I should add that my last DE car (E46 330ci) had about 230hp in a 3300lb chassis. So it shouldn't be difficult for me to go faster with either setup, really.

Your options are either Mookeh or some d2 coilovers that'll need mods to fit. Or find some used setups from somewhere. There are guys who have hoarded parts from the late 90s early 2000s. I know a guy who used to race them in PR and all his parts are in his shed. I've already bought a few rare performance bits.

Regardless, that's a very small lot of suspension options to pick from.

pointofdeparture wrote: BTW, I should add that my last DE car (E46 330ci) had about 230hp in a 3300lb chassis. So it shouldn't be difficult for me to go faster with either setup, really.

Honestly a lightly modded one is plenty of fun. When you start putting too much power through them they start breaking. They get sideways easy enough stock.

Woody wrote:

Props to Woody here - Because baseball glove leather - the TT for the win.

I cannot speak to the Starion/Conquest option personally aside from looking pretty bad A$$, but have known a couple guys who ran TT's in HPDE and liked them. Both were pretty fast for what they were. The TT have a strong aftermarket so that's a plus and as I recall Audi got 220hp or 240hp from the factory 1.8t so reliable power is there.

I think this decision comes down to how 'good' one is at diagnosing electrical gremlins.

I likes me some oddball cars and a Starquest is still on my bucket list. However, depending on your fab skills and how much time you prefer to make stuff vs drive the car, I'd lean towards the car with a better aftermarket.