1 2
alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/21/22 11:25 p.m.

In terms of the hard budget cap idea to ballance the cars, lets see how F1 evolves over the next few years.  That's very much a ballance of resource and output idea to see if it works.

BTW, the history of outspending the other teams goes back really far- remember how Audi and Mercedes dominated in the 30's.  

 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
1/21/22 11:38 p.m.
JStrobel80 said:

Thanks for all the input so far, I appreciate opposing points of view to make myself less ignorant. However, most of these arguments circle back to a "budget cap" more than a engineering cap no? I understand the spending and spending to create a monster car. Then wouldnt it be about engineering within limits as opposed to mechanical restriction of advanced parts? In other words, wouldnt you learn to push the boundaries of whats possible with 70k versus just seeing what your deep pockets are capable of? "Sure we found we could get 6/10ths out of that, lets move on to a different area" instead of pushing for 10/10ths and finding the minutiae in every area, suspension, aero, fuel efficiency...the list goes on. Perhaps I just have an idealistic view of the whole thing. It seems that it becomes an IROC series with different looking cars. As a fan, I personally enjoy seeing things like the 917, or the Quattro when it came out. They are game changers and re-sets the bar for whats possible...they figured it out. 

There may be 30-40 cars on the field  for a race but there will only be one winner.  Almost any other sport  there will be one winner and one loser.  Not a whole field of them.  In fact some sports they BOP by weight. 
    

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
1/22/22 12:27 a.m.

Non-BOP competition exists, too, and I run in some: SCCA Xtreme Street autocross. The rules only specify a minimum weight, 200tw tires and some basics regarding street-worthiness. 

I run a Miata like most of the people in my class. The car wasn't built to any specific SCCA rules--headwork, programmable ECU, suspension, etc.--so it lands there. I also do like the open rules structure, so I vote with my dollars, so to speak. 

Last time the car was dynoed, it made 113 at the wheels--not bad for an n/a 1.6L Miata.

But that was also 20 years ago. I run against Miatas making 300+ at the wheels. The guy who beat us all at the last event has an NC running forced induction on E85. It still has a/c. I believe it's his daily. I tell ya, it's tough when you're 5 seconds back on a 35-second course. I could make up some of that time with more power, but that's also more money.

I run local events because I enjoy it. Would I make the tow to Lincoln for Solo Nats? Not so sure, to be honest.

preach (dudeist priest)
preach (dudeist priest) GRM+ Memberand Dork
1/22/22 7:21 a.m.

BOP Porsche 919. 3 overall firsts at the pinnacle of endurance racing.

Porsche engineers after a line of cocaine and a bratwurst: 919Evo. Smashes their own (35yo?) record at the Nurburgring.

Best of both worlds.

BlueInGreen - Jon
BlueInGreen - Jon UltraDork
1/22/22 11:49 a.m.

I will say, the Michelin Pilot Challenge is some of the best racing I've seen in a long time.

I watched a couple races on YouTube last year and was hooked. TCR racecars are cool.

Noddaz
Noddaz GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/23/22 1:46 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

In reply to Noddaz :

IROC is/was a weird animal. For the driver, what's the benefit for risking it all? 

To be the best of the best, Sir! (Distorted quote from MIB)  laugh

And I am sure a pile of money didn't hurt either.

 Scott

 

 

 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
1/23/22 10:59 p.m.

In reply to Noddaz :

Honestly, did IROC pay that well? 

Sorta related, several years back I was invited to the NBA all-star game. I noticed that no one was playing that hard. Someone there explained that, yeah, no one takes a big risk during that game. 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
1/23/22 11:07 p.m.

And we have some data from today's Roar race--qualifying for the 24. Looks like it's going to be a close one. 

 

kevinatfms
kevinatfms GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
1/24/22 7:56 a.m.
David S. Wallens said:

In reply to Mr_Asa :

And that's a heck of a track record for keeping a series going. The DTM was all kinds of awesome in the mid '90s, but then everyone except Benz left after 1996. The end. Similar story for Group B rally but a decade earlier. 

Formula D has some wide-open rules, but it seems to work although we're talking privateers vs. factory efforts. They do have tire rules, though, that limits things a bit. And the format keeps someone slightly off the pace from being lapped, so it's still exciting. 

What is the longest that we've gone in post-war sports car racing without some kind of BOP? 

Dont think Group B was about one car dominating....more like safety regulations killed the class.

clutchsmoke
clutchsmoke UltraDork
1/24/22 11:22 a.m.

MotoGP seems to have figured out a ruleset to keep things interesting. That's 2 wheels vs 4 wheels though.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/24/22 11:39 a.m.

In reply to clutchsmoke :

I haven't paid attention in a few years, but is it still Factory vs Privater teams?

trigun7469
trigun7469 SuperDork
1/24/22 11:44 a.m.

I always thought that BTCC regulations were straight forward and they did a good job with adding the weight to the winners, I think World Challenge adopted it as well before it fell out of existence. I wish other series would follow simplistic rules with weight gains for top finshers. 

hybridmomentspass
hybridmomentspass HalfDork
1/24/22 12:05 p.m.
trigun7469 said:

I always thought that BTCC regulations were straight forward and they did a good job with adding the weight to the winners, I think World Challenge adopted it as well before it fell out of existence. I wish other series would follow simplistic rules with weight gains for top finshers. 

Didnt JGTC/SuperGT do the same?

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
1/24/22 12:08 p.m.

In reply to hybridmomentspass :

Yes, and you got to run some of these. 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
1/24/22 12:10 p.m.

And I was thinking about this last night. Are the salary caps found in pro sports a form of BOP? 

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/24/22 12:31 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

And I was thinking about this last night. Are the salary caps found in pro sports a form of BOP? 

100% they are.  And it helps that there are always top spending teams that can't win, even with a spending cap that's not really that even to the smaller teams.

BFH_Garage
BFH_Garage Reader
1/24/22 12:56 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:

In reply to hybridmomentspass :

Yes, and you got to run some of these. 

I was wishing for this during the 2021 F1 season. So tired of two teams running away with the season. 
 

either add weight or make previous winners consume 2 hot dogs per win (that season) immediately prior to the formation lap...

JStrobel80
JStrobel80 New Reader
1/29/22 5:06 p.m.

Since so many of you have chimed in, Id like to amend the complaint/question. As I watch Daytona today, I have relegated myself to see that some kind of BOP is good for the sport. Sure, I would still like to see a "wide open" class, but Im fine with it for now...theres some good racing going on today. 

SO, adjusting the question/complaint to; Tell me why "Wave arounds" under Yellow are a good idea? It seems that youre getting a free pass for earlier misfortune while others stayed out of trouble and get no benefit. Perhaps I dont fully understand. 

racerfink
racerfink UltraDork
1/29/22 10:50 p.m.

The wave arounds keep people in lower classes from effectively being put a lap down through no fault of their own.

If first and second in GTD Pro are three car lengths apart and second gets passed by the overall leader, then a caution comes out, first place gets to drive around to the tail end of the field, gaining nearly a lap on second.

JStrobel80
JStrobel80 New Reader
1/30/22 8:35 a.m.

In reply to racerfink :

I appreciate the response, makes sense now. 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
2/1/22 3:45 p.m.

In reply to JStrobel80 :

Thanks for launching the conversation and, yeah, we did have a close race the other day. 

Is BOP perfect? I don't think anything's perfect. But it does deliver close racing backed by a lot of teams and manufacturers. I'm eager to see what GTP delivers next year. Sounds like it could quickly become a full field. 

1 2
Our Preferred Partners
3JH6gK0g1TfSdbfgdGnqG1IGYO6fFeL1K0bECgidDK6OJuMZ7GVWRqPk89jmF75n