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bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter)
bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
12/16/22 1:28 a.m.

You all still here agonizing about the safety of grown ass adults who dont give a crap what you think? Last time I checked in was page 6 or so and I see the same comments 8 pages later.

chandler
chandler UltimaDork
12/16/22 7:06 a.m.
bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

You all still here agonizing about the safety of grown ass adults who dont give a crap what you think? Last time I checked in was page 6 or so and I see the same comments 8 pages later.

I've actually just been checking in to see who else gets dragged into this mess.

ProDarwin
ProDarwin MegaDork
12/16/22 9:05 a.m.
Opti said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

You're conflating 2 very different things.

One is safety standards for the uneducated consumer for the very basic necessity of travel.

And you're comparing that to a voluntary race filled with willing participants that know the risk.

I'd be happy to actually debate your questions, but you framed then in a very intellectually dishonest way.

It's the equivalent of saying "since you think certain experimental treatments being tried on terminal patients is good, should we just remove all standards from medical practitioners?"

It's a false equivalence.

I'm not conflating them. I didn't suggest they are equivalent.  I gave examples at other points on the spectrum and asked where you would draw the line.

 

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
12/16/22 12:59 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Wow, holy carp, YES THERE IS.  There's a HUGE difference between a group, or groups of people being identified, rounded up and killed compared to a drug addict dying.  If you can't see that, well, I'm not sure what to say.  Planned genocide is NOT the same as a drug addict OD'ing.

Dale's car was built to the safety standard of the day.  His roll cage, window net etc was installed correctly, in sharp contrast to the safety equipment added to the cars provided by Cleetus.

Scotty Con Queso
Scotty Con Queso SuperDork
12/16/22 1:25 p.m.

C'mon guys. Please stop. 

aw614
aw614 Reader
12/16/22 2:57 p.m.

Honestly regardless of the safety issues of his events (which are a legit gripe), as a local to the area, I am more concerned with the loss of both venues, even if I don't go to many events there, plenty of friends do. There is only going to be Showtime speedway that is nearby that is left for enthusiasts to go, and this doesn't count the loss of local autocross sites in the area and how much longer Showtime remains viable...

Lof8 - Andy
Lof8 - Andy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/16/22 3:23 p.m.

In reply to aw614 :

4-17 Speedway in Punta Gorda (Ross Chastain's home track) was nearly lost a few weeks ago.  The land owner (Airport) was going to give the lease to a company that wanted to use it for a fairgrounds.  The locals rallied and the fairgrounds people backed out.  Its now been taken over by a motocross group and it looks like they're going to keep the circle track alive.  What a battle it is to try and keep grassroots racing alive.  I'm not sure I want to live in the world thats going to exist 10 years from now.

NickD
NickD MegaDork
12/16/22 7:52 p.m.
aw614 said:

Honestly regardless of the safety issues of his events (which are a legit gripe), as a local to the area, I am more concerned with the loss of both venues, even if I don't go to many events there, plenty of friends do. There is only going to be Showtime speedway that is nearby that is left for enthusiasts to go, and this doesn't count the loss of local autocross sites in the area and how much longer Showtime remains viable...

I listened in to part of the county planning board meeting via the livestream. The board honestly seemed more in favor of the tracks. Several even suggested extending historic landmark to the tracks, and the protection that that grants. One board member basically inferred that the developers were being either duplicitous or just hadn't their homework in what they were presenting to both prospective residents and the board. 

Garrett made a solid argument in his 3 minutes where he said "If I were to come before you and ask to build a dragstrip in the backyard of 3500 homes, would you allow it? If your answer would be no, then how can you allow building 3500 homes next to a dragstrip?"

Another person who spoke out for the dragstrip was the gentleman who owned the construction firm that builds all the sound abatement barriers in Manatee County. He pointed out that the developer's proposal called for the developer to construct a 10-foot tall wall that was intended for highway use, but that the dragstrip would fall under a different category. He said under the calculations for that category, it would require a 50-foot tall wall, which no one actually manufactures, and then even after it was constructed, they would have to do a decibel test during an event and if it failed redesign it. And he said he was certain that it wouldn't pass.

It wasn't a concisive win for BMP and the Freedom Factory, but it certainly was far more positive than hoped.

Opti
Opti SuperDork
12/17/22 12:30 a.m.
ProDarwin said:
Opti said:

In reply to ProDarwin :

You're conflating 2 very different things.

One is safety standards for the uneducated consumer for the very basic necessity of travel.

And you're comparing that to a voluntary race filled with willing participants that know the risk.

I'd be happy to actually debate your questions, but you framed then in a very intellectually dishonest way.

It's the equivalent of saying "since you think certain experimental treatments being tried on terminal patients is good, should we just remove all standards from medical practitioners?"

It's a false equivalence.

I'm not conflating them. I didn't suggest they are equivalent.  I gave examples at other points on the spectrum and asked where you would draw the line.

 

You put quotations around the phrase, safety standards arent needed, which I dont think many agree with. I cant speak for everyone but it seems like the people that disagree with you are actually saying something along the lines of, better safety standards in these events would be great but at the end of the day these are informed and consenting adults, so who cares, quit crying about it.

The problem I have is, pretty much everything in this thread has been in the context of motorsports or even grassroots motorsports (the generic, not the trademarked phrase), you tied it into basic consumer level transport, where most consumers are uneducated. These things are not alike and it seems like a dishonest play on emotions, to stir up a "you want to kill grandmas" response.

I think there is an interesting debate in what you asked but it has nothing to do with motorsports or what we are talking about here.

It's nice to see he made some compelling arguments. Havent seen one of these track vs developer/homeowners go well around here. In fact we had a pretty bad one a few years ago. Some pretty underhanded tactics used to put an old dragstrip out of business. I still put his chances to suceed pretty low, but I sure hope he wins.

kb58
kb58 UltraDork
12/18/22 12:50 a.m.

I used to think, "Everyone has the right/freedom to decide about their level of safety."

The trouble is, all it takes is a few people to sue after they change their minds, screwing everyone*. There are people out there who want it both ways, demanding the freedom to do what they want, and not fact the consequences of those choices. Because of this, we have to have authoritarian safety rules and devices to protect us from - ultimately - human nature.

*high entry fees, canceled events, really high insurance, etc

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) UberDork
12/18/22 8:16 a.m.
docwyte said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Wow, holy carp, YES THERE IS.  There's a HUGE difference between a group, or groups of people being identified, rounded up and killed compared to a drug addict dying.  If you can't see that, well, I'm not sure what to say.  Planned genocide is NOT the same as a drug addict OD'ing.

Dale's car was built to the safety standard of the day.  His roll cage, window net etc was installed correctly, in sharp contrast to the safety equipment added to the cars provided by Cleetus.

There is a bigger difference between people being rounded up and murdered and your hypothetical brother dying in Cleetus' car, but that didn't stop you from making the comparison.  So now your upset with me?  That's rich.  
 

Unnecessarily dead has far more in common than your brothers hypothetical choice to race Cleetus' car.  Que up more faux outrage please.  

AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
12/18/22 8:32 a.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
docwyte said:

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Wow, holy carp, YES THERE IS.  There's a HUGE difference between a group, or groups of people being identified, rounded up and killed compared to a drug addict dying.  If you can't see that, well, I'm not sure what to say.  Planned genocide is NOT the same as a drug addict OD'ing.

Dale's car was built to the safety standard of the day.  His roll cage, window net etc was installed correctly, in sharp contrast to the safety equipment added to the cars provided by Cleetus.

There is a bigger difference between people being rounded up and murdered and your hypothetical brother dying in Cleetus' car, but that didn't stop you from making the comparison.  So now your upset with me?  That's rich.  
 

Unnecessarily dead has far more in common than your brothers hypothetical choice to race Cleetus' car.  Que up more faux outrage please.  

NO. It's "Queue" or pehaps "Cue".

racerfink
racerfink UberDork
12/18/22 9:48 a.m.

In reply to AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) :

Uhhh...

"2. Same as cue."

 

bumpsteer
bumpsteer New Reader
12/18/22 9:51 a.m.

What the berkeley even is this thread man

Opti
Opti SuperDork
12/18/22 10:50 a.m.

In reply to bumpsteer :

a bunch of grown ass adults crying about what other grown ass adults do.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/18/22 10:59 a.m.

Can everyone take a chill pill in here please?

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) UberDork
12/18/22 11:06 a.m.

In reply to AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) :

Okay Cue it is.  I still find comparing unsafe cars to what literally Hitler did an outrageous stretch.  You disagree with anyone in this day and age and the Hitler comparisons start flying around.  That's ridiculous. 

And why someone dies or specifically how isn't all that important.  Unnecessarily dead is still dead.  And that's very different from hypothetically dead because someone isn't responsible for their own safety. 

Again, I recommend taking this garbage to OT where faux outrage is considered cool. 

Oh and Cleetus is still making mad bank off those clicks!  Have fun. 

preach (dudeist priest)
preach (dudeist priest) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/18/22 11:24 a.m.
Javelin said:

Can everyone take a chill pill in here please?

This.

AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter)
AAZCD-Jon (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
12/18/22 11:54 a.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks Anthony. Cue is much more better and Que aint as good unless you are writing in Spanish.

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
12/18/22 12:10 p.m.

I had to go back and read my post to remember why I brought it up.  I brought it up to highlight the danger of people staying quiet, crossing their fingers and hoping evil would just go away.  It was not a direct comparison to this situation, other than in response to the other members question about if it's our responsibility to stand up and say something when an obvious dangerous situation is identified.

It's incumbent on all of us to stand up and act when we see something bad happening, otherwise it just continues and it is tacitly approved.

You then tried to say a drug addict, who has a choice in what they do, if/how they start, if/when they stop, is the same as someone who absolutely did not have that choice.  Those are not the same.  Not even close.

At the base of it, I disagree with you that just because someone makes a choice to get into a race car (in this example) that it's ok for the promoter, who provides the car, to no longer have any responsibility in the safety of that vehicle.  It's absolutely the promoters responsibility to ensure that what they're providing is as safe as it can be, that any added equipment is properly installed, so it adds safety and doesn't detract from it.  From there, it's the person's choice to participate or not.

With that, I'm out.  It's clear you and I simply don't agree here and common ground won't be found.

 

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
12/18/22 12:19 p.m.

Its time to punch out of this thread.

jmabarone
jmabarone Reader
12/19/22 8:21 a.m.
Lof8 - Andy said:

In reply to aw614 :

4-17 Speedway in Punta Gorda (Ross Chastain's home track) was nearly lost a few weeks ago.  The land owner (Airport) was going to give the lease to a company that wanted to use it for a fairgrounds.  The locals rallied and the fairgrounds people backed out.  Its now been taken over by a motocross group and it looks like they're going to keep the circle track alive.  What a battle it is to try and keep grassroots racing alive.  I'm not sure I want to live in the world thats going to exist 10 years from now.

Good to hear that.  My only wins in karts were at that track.  

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/19/22 9:30 a.m.
bearmtnmartin (Forum Supporter) said:

You all still here agonizing about the safety of grown ass adults who dont give a crap what you think? Last time I checked in was page 6 or so and I see the same comments 8 pages later.

I don't think the assertion that safety issues are harmless to the sport in general is true, it's an overstatement at the very least. For an extreme example, see IoM TT - the continued existence of the event is a major issue in local politics and "Mad Sunday" has already been a casualty. For another extreme example, WRC Group B. And those are huge big-budget events that can afford teams of lawyers, a grassroots event would be flattened by a stiff breeze in comparison.

For grassroots events, the biggest threat is losing a venue, we've already seen the threat that trash and noise from drift events can pose to autocross venues, and I don't have any hard evidence of the cause and effect, but there haven't been any more events at the site of that Toronto autocross crash I mentioned early in the thread after the season in which it occurred wrapped up. Another club in the region looking for a new venue around the same time went through hell to get it, with many months of delays to their first event, and rumors were that it was related to that crash as well. Deaths in autocross and grassroots racing in general are quite rare, but after seeing the consequences of littering, noise, and property damage, do you really want to find out what someone getting injured or killed would do?

(Edit: Another extreme example that came to mind: PPIHC motorcycle racing)

Lof8 - Andy
Lof8 - Andy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/19/22 9:36 p.m.

Just registered for the Crown Vic race at FF on 1/7. It's for normal people with their own crown vics. Real roll cages and window nets. Should be fun!

Scotty Con Queso
Scotty Con Queso SuperDork
3/3/23 6:15 p.m.

In reply to Lof8 - Andy :

Andy - are you going to be there on the 31st? I'll be there with my FIL and Queso Kid 3. 

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