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pimpm3 (Forum Supporter)
pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) UberDork
2/3/22 8:00 p.m.
dannyp84 said:

In reply to Furious_E (Forum Supporter) :

You've got a point, though I'm still amazed at how often clean unmodified S13s come out of the woodwork and show up on Instagram. Hopefully the 86/BRZ appeals to people who were maybe cross shopping a Cayman but would like to keep some money in their pockets, and they'll keep the cars in good condition. The other day I looked for a Hakone edition 86 and there were only 2 for sale within 1500 miles, which is a shame because the paint color is lovely.

Its funny I was actually cross shopping caymans but pulled the trigger in December on a new BRZ.  I figure it should be similar performance wise to an s2000, e36 m3 or a cayman in a package that isn't 10 to 20 years old.

Not to mention it should be extremely competitive in DS autocross out of the box 

dannyp84
dannyp84 Reader
2/3/22 8:43 p.m.

In reply to pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) :

This would be my argument in support of the 86, the driving experience is probably very similar to cars everyone loved from 20 or more years ago, and the curb weight is under 3k lbs, but all the bushings and everything are new and everything feels tight and fresh. It probably also has better chassis rigidity than most cars from decades ago. I've definitely considered parting with my Sportcross for an 86.

Furious_E (Forum Supporter)
Furious_E (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
2/3/22 8:57 p.m.
pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) said:
dannyp84 said:

In reply to Furious_E (Forum Supporter) :

You've got a point, though I'm still amazed at how often clean unmodified S13s come out of the woodwork and show up on Instagram. Hopefully the 86/BRZ appeals to people who were maybe cross shopping a Cayman but would like to keep some money in their pockets, and they'll keep the cars in good condition. The other day I looked for a Hakone edition 86 and there were only 2 for sale within 1500 miles, which is a shame because the paint color is lovely.

Its funny I was actually cross shopping caymans but pulled the trigger in December on a new BRZ.  I figure it should be similar performance wise to an s2000, e36 m3 or a cayman in a package that isn't 10 to 20 years old.

Not to mention it should be extremely competitive in DS autocross out of the box 

Ha, I guess I fit that description as well. Would have loved a Cayman instead, but felt it would have been just a bit too expensive and ostentatious at the time. Someday though...

And yes, I think the new ones will be absolutely killer in DS this year. 

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
2/3/22 10:41 p.m.

And the worry about them being hammered into the ground is why I bought new. The model was 3 years old when I did and even then, I knew what type of people these cars attract. I didn't want to undo a hard park stance-bro's stages. Its my forever car, so I care nothing for depreciation. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/4/22 9:30 a.m.

I think it's mostly I really dislike the "stance" culture and these guys purposefully making their cars less safe to drive, while also looking stupid.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
2/4/22 9:05 p.m.

Less safe and looking stupid has been around a long, long time.

I'm disappointed that even though these cars get wadded up at an alarming rate, slavaged parts still seem to command a premium (at least in Chicagoland). Maybe they're desperate to pay off the bank note on a ball that used to be an 86.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/5/22 10:14 a.m.

I really like the twins. Probably the biggest issue stopping me considering one is they mistakenly shipped them all with steel instead of fabric overhead, but that does come with the advantage of a vestigial rear seat for the doggos that isn't available on the Miata.  
 

For those who are saying that the 'crappy' engine will prevent it be a classic, may I present the RX7 as exhibit A.  Now I know I'll upset a significant number of grease encrusted basement dwellers, but at the end of the day the rotary is basically a E36 M3 engine.  Sure, sure the examples of 1,000,000 mile never opened up versions making double the stock power and even getting double digit fuel mileage will start coming out of the woodwork.  But the truth is that for the vast majority of people, enthusiasts included, they were not good, reliable engines by any measure. This coming from a past happy rotary owner.  I think the relative quirkiness of the boxer will addd to its long term appeal.

 

And for those complaining about lack of power and needing to swap to a different, more powerful engine.  Yawn.  A lot of us prefer small, light, tossable, momentum machines over extra weight and power.  This coming from a 1.6l NA Miata, two V6 S550 Mustangs and a 2.5L Boxster owner.  It's fun to be able to ring out a car through the rev range in 2nd and 3rd without being a total asshat and jailbait.  On the racing side the relatively modest power makes consumables magnitudes cheaper.    

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/5/22 12:00 p.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

The power thing is an interesting discussion - of course every car needs more power, but this discussion seems to be even more prevalent in places where everybody looks at quarter mile times. After all, they sell the ND Miata with a 1.5L in Europe and some of the motoring rags over there actually declared it better compared to the 2L.

With the gen 1 Frisbie, the issue to me is more the Valley of Torques than outright power, but then I don't take issue with winding out engines based on past and current rotary ownership. Yes, more would be nice but like a Miata, these things are about the overall balance.

I would suspect however that the long term prospects of these cars might be hampered somewhat by their engine's propensity to self destruct. Objectively, even the non-turbo FA20 isn't that great an engine and I'm still trying to figure out if people have actually managed to make them properly reliable. I suspect at some point, someone will have figure out most of the necessarily reliability mods. Are people going to be willing to pay for them? That's going to be another question.

So I guess the proper answer would be to 13B swap them.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/5/22 12:08 p.m.

In reply to BoxheadTim :

1st gen Frisbees certainly had a torque dip problem, but I don't know about the Internet insistence about Scoobie Boxers being unreliable.  I know many people with Scoobies.  Imprezas, Foresters, WRX's, STi's from new to 20 years old.  Owned by enthusiasts, school teachers, moms, college kids, dad's etc.  The one common factor?  The engines have all lasted throughout their ownership and beyond 100k miles with nothing but oil and gas.  But then all my VW and Audi owning friends also have zero issues.

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/5/22 12:21 p.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) :

Well, the original engine in my car pretty much self destructed in a spectacular fashion with a hole in the block and most of a piston in the oil pan. There is a ready market  for second hand engines on these - pretty much every time someone does a part out, the engine is the first part that sells.

I know a few people involved with Subarus in a motorsport - mostly time attack - environment, and they mostly seem to agree with the Internet that the FA20s have some issues that older Subaru boxer engines don't necessarily have. Part of the issue is that nobody seems to agree on why they blow up, although a lot of knowledgeable people do point at the oiling system. There are certainly upgrades available that are supposed to help, but of course the other question is how many people are willing to pay extra for that, at least as long as there is a supply of decently cheap engines.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/5/22 3:20 p.m.

How are they doing in spec frisbee autocross?  Are they popping there?  If not I'm good as that's already a 99.9th percentile.  
 

if they regularly pop in track use, they are already popular enough that a fix will be found.  

parker
parker Reader
2/5/22 7:07 p.m.

105,000 trouble free miles on my 2015 FR-S.  Of course the engine is stock and I've only tracked it a couple of times. 

What gets me is the number of people who take an engine with 12.5:1 compression ratio, add forced induction, and are surprised that it blows up.  Stock they make just over 100hp per liter.  That used to be the realm of strictly race engines, except for the S2000.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
2/6/22 9:21 a.m.
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) said:

How are they doing in spec frisbee autocross?  Are they popping there?  If not I'm good as that's already a 99.9th percentile.  
 

if they regularly pop in track use, they are already popular enough that a fix will be found.  

Even NA, they pop. They almost always wipe the #3 or #4 rod bearing. This has been known for years at this point. If you really want a reliable FA motor for track use, you need a built block from IAG (at a minimum) and I wouldn't track one regularly unless I also spent the money for a sump setup. 

That said, I still really like Subarus, and for some reason we don't see all the hullaboloo around LS7s and the fact that you HAVE to spend a few thousand to fix the heads or the motor eats itself. 

I really can't think of a car outside of a Miata that doesn't have problems that need fixed before wringing it's neck around the track. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/6/22 12:08 p.m.

There was one of the Mustangs a couple of years ago that was fully hardened - Emilio at 949Racing has one and he doesn't noodle around. 

For all those that have no acquaintances with Subaru engine failures, it's because I know them all. And not a single one was modified or tracked, all were well maintained. They're just not the robust little things they were 35 years ago when they got their reputation. 

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
2/6/22 12:33 p.m.
z31maniac said:
​​​​i really can't think of a car outside of a Miata that doesn't have problems that need fixed before wringing it's neck around the track. 

Off the top of my head Civics, Miata, s2k, gti of all flavor, MS3, 350z, 370z, all the B-spec cars (Fit, Mazda2, Mini, etc) all sorts of old cars, etc don't take anything special that I'm aware of in the "don't have catastrophic engine failure" department. I have personal experience with half that list on track and beaten within an inch of their collective lives. 

The K-swap is going to make for a mean little car.

https://kpower.industries/blogs/news/kpower-ft86-swap-faqs

pimpm3 (Forum Supporter)
pimpm3 (Forum Supporter) UberDork
2/6/22 6:56 p.m.

For a little perspective the spec miata track record at roebling road raceway is a 1:21.9.

A guy on the gr86 forum ran a 1:21.71 with a bone stock 2022 GR86 (down to the brake pads and fluid) yesterday at a track day. He was on a set of 225 AO52's but it was his 1st track day in the car. 

Pretty impressive for a 1st outing with a new car.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/1/22 9:27 a.m.
BoxheadTim said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Maybe I'm a little paranoid from seeing some other cars' aftermarket slowly disappear, but I suspect the 86 aftermarket - at least for parts that only fit the first series - probably isn't that sustainable. Part of it seems to be that the aftermarket is ripe with knock-off parts, and part of it is that a lot of the discussion about modifications I've seen lately were definitely focused on price.

Like the "I want stupidly loud and low" leading to the cheapest straight pipe and maxpeedingrod competitor's coilovers that one could find on fleabay.

Either that or I need to hang out with a better class of 86 owners .

Regarding the restore vs modify - while I like mine (I just resent the money I'm currently dumping into it to get it working again), I don't think they're that great stock. They really can be improved with proper modifications, and my impression is that this was the intent - build them more down to a price, and if someone wants fully adjustable rear suspension and Öhlins coilovers, the aftermarket will sort it out.

Sometimes I question my sanity - occasionally it answers back

We must be looking at different mods, I'm seeing absolutely no shortage of very premium mods available for the Toyobaru, and aftermarket parts prices for these in general seem to be affected by a hint of "rich guy tax" compared to what I'm used to for low-end Japanese sporty cars.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
4/1/22 9:30 a.m.
GameboyRMH said:
BoxheadTim said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Maybe I'm a little paranoid from seeing some other cars' aftermarket slowly disappear, but I suspect the 86 aftermarket - at least for parts that only fit the first series - probably isn't that sustainable. Part of it seems to be that the aftermarket is ripe with knock-off parts, and part of it is that a lot of the discussion about modifications I've seen lately were definitely focused on price.

Like the "I want stupidly loud and low" leading to the cheapest straight pipe and maxpeedingrod competitor's coilovers that one could find on fleabay.

Either that or I need to hang out with a better class of 86 owners .

Regarding the restore vs modify - while I like mine (I just resent the money I'm currently dumping into it to get it working again), I don't think they're that great stock. They really can be improved with proper modifications, and my impression is that this was the intent - build them more down to a price, and if someone wants fully adjustable rear suspension and Öhlins coilovers, the aftermarket will sort it out.

Sometimes I question my sanity - occasionally it answers back

We must be looking at different mods, I'm seeing absolutely no shortage of very premium mods available for the Toyobaru, and aftermarket parts prices for these in general seem to be affected by a hint of "rich guy tax" compared to what I'm used to for low-end Japanese sporty cars.

Not to mention there has already been shown A LOT of Gen 1 mods that are compatible with the Gen 2. 

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