MrChaos said:I do think 350z/g35's are the next big rwd rallycross chassis since there is only really the miata. And the drift guys made the aftermarket decent for them
Did...did you miss the mid engine platforms that have been cleaning up for the last few years? I think there's some modern stuff that could prove competitive, but engine over the drive wheels is a huge advantage. I'm sure a good driver could be competitive in a 350z/g35, but theres other things they be even better in.
MrChaos said:I do think 350z/g35's are the next big rwd rallycross chassis since there is only really the miata. And the drift guys made the aftermarket decent for them
Did...did you miss the mid engine platforms that have been cleaning up for the last few years? I think there's some modern stuff that could prove competitive, but engine over the drive wheels is a huge advantage. I'm sure a good driver could be competitive in a 350z/g35, but theres other things they be even better in for the same level of investment.
irish44j said:maschinenbau said:These are MagnaGrip Wintermarks, which seem to be a low end Goodyear brand. For $25 a tire this is an easy way to dip my toes in. These should fit on 15x7, which has many options including Jeep alloys and circle track steelies. Summit has brand new circle track wheels for $50. I'll wait to see what my local SCCA says.
They are sold under the Kelly Tire brand, FWIW.
I would not use circle track wheels for any reason, personally. they'll be bent in short order if the course is rough at all.
Also, I can't speak for Atlanta, but your radiator and that little core support would be toast in our region (and our region isn't considered rough) unless you plan to make the car considerably taller.
looks like they would be running in one of the gravel/grass parking lots. Im really curious on what the layout would be.
MrChaos said:irish44j said:maschinenbau said:These are MagnaGrip Wintermarks, which seem to be a low end Goodyear brand. For $25 a tire this is an easy way to dip my toes in. These should fit on 15x7, which has many options including Jeep alloys and circle track steelies. Summit has brand new circle track wheels for $50. I'll wait to see what my local SCCA says.
They are sold under the Kelly Tire brand, FWIW.
I would not use circle track wheels for any reason, personally. they'll be bent in short order if the course is rough at all.
Also, I can't speak for Atlanta, but your radiator and that little core support would be toast in our region (and our region isn't considered rough) unless you plan to make the car considerably taller.
looks like they would be running in one of the gravel/grass parking lots. Im really curious on what the layout would be.
yeah, makes sense. Never know though. We run at Summit Point Motorsports park and definitely are NOT using a parking lot lol.....we have three courses there and one of them can get pretty rough. so you never know.
MrChaos said:I do think 350z/g35's are the next big rwd rallycross chassis since there is only really the miata. And the drift guys made the aftermarket decent for them
Way too big and heavy, IMO. They get stuck easily and they don't like to turn at all. And rallycross is basically driving at 20-40mph without ever going in a straight line for more than a second or two, ability to change direction quickly is important.
I'm going to guess the next big RWD chassis is going to be the ND.
Knurled. said:MrChaos said:I do think 350z/g35's are the next big rwd rallycross chassis since there is only really the miata. And the drift guys made the aftermarket decent for them
Way too big and heavy, IMO. They get stuck easily and they don't like to turn at all. And rallycross is basically driving at 20-40mph without ever going in a straight line for more than a second or two, ability to change direction quickly is important.
I'm going to guess the next big RWD chassis is going to be the ND.
frs/brz more than likely
MrChaos said:frs/brz more than likely
Yup this.
Knurled. said:MrChaos said:I do think 350z/g35's are the next big rwd rallycross chassis since there is only really the miata. And the drift guys made the aftermarket decent for them
Way too big and heavy, IMO. They get stuck easily and they don't like to turn at all. And rallycross is basically driving at 20-40mph without ever going in a straight line for more than a second or two, ability to change direction quickly is important.
I'm going to guess the next big RWD chassis is going to be the ND.
If I had unlimited budget I'd probably pick the nd. Though the frs is surprisingly fast especially considering it's awful on paper. I need to find someone crazier and with more disposable income than me to try a 987 Cayman. Basically a boxster that's lighter, stiffer, more powerful, still can have 16" wheels in reasonable widths, and is geared so you can just leave it in first gear
In reply to dps214 :
IME, to go 40 you need gearing that runs to 70, unless you like hitting the rev limiter like the fist of an angry god. Tires be spinnin' and faces be grinnin'.
And if you ain't got tirespin problems, that is because you ain't cornering hard enough yet.
I did say "in the future". Meaning when ND prices get sub-$15k. People already spend more than that for Stock All class cars, and all wheel drive is nowhere near as fun. (I mean, no, don't go for an ND, they suck. Wait until after I get my RF)
Anyways, I've heard enough bad things about rallycrossing BRZs that I'd avoid it. Something about the stability control fighting you constantly. Rear drive really needs to be thrown sideways into corners so you can drive straight out, and the nannies apparently don't let you do that. They also seem rather wide, and width is important as long as course designers make slaloms that Miatas and E30s can drive straight through. Maybe on paper it's a couple of inches, but when you're driving on cones in a narrower car, it makes a difference, and the rear drive classes are often won by tenths of a second because in RWD the main limitation is the course, not the car.
Knurled. said:In reply to dps214 :
IME, to go 40 you need gearing that runs to 70, unless you like hitting the rev limiter like the fist of an angry god. Tires be spinnin' and faces be grinnin'.
And if you ain't got tirespin problems, that is because you ain't cornering hard enough yet.
I did say "in the future". Meaning when ND prices get sub-$15k. People already spend more than that for Stock All class cars, and all wheel drive is nowhere near as fun. (I mean, no, don't go for an ND, they suck. Wait until after I get my RF)
Anyways, I've heard enough bad things about rallycrossing BRZs that I'd avoid it. Something about the stability control fighting you constantly. Rear drive really needs to be thrown sideways into corners so you can drive straight out, and the nannies apparently don't let you do that. They also seem rather wide, and width is important as long as course designers make slaloms that Miatas and E30s can drive straight through. Maybe on paper it's a couple of inches, but when you're driving on cones in a narrower car, it makes a difference, and the rear drive classes are often won by tenths of a second because in RWD the main limitation is the course, not the car.
i mean shouldnt you be pulling the abs and traction control fuses anyway?
Knurled. said:Anyways, I've heard enough bad things about rallycrossing BRZs that I'd avoid it. Something about the stability control fighting you constantly. Rear drive really needs to be thrown sideways into corners so you can drive straight out, and the nannies apparently don't let you do that. They also seem rather wide, and width is important as long as course designers make slaloms that Miatas and E30s can drive straight through. Maybe on paper it's a couple of inches, but when you're driving on cones in a narrower car, it makes a difference, and the rear drive classes are often won by tenths of a second because in RWD the main limitation is the course, not the car.
IIRC, you have a choice with those for traction / stability control. There's normal, a relaxed mode and there is a (somewhat complicated) way to just turn it off. Of course, on pavement, it's not very aggressive anyway. I've watched a friend hang the tail out pretty far, followed by "oh hey, I forgot to turn off traction control".
As you pointed out, course design matters a lot. And I've found that the cars that are the fastest in the tight bits of a course are usually not the fastest in the slaloms. And those that are fast through slaloms usually don't do so well in the tight spots. Being fast in a slalom (at least with RWD or AWD) tends to prefer a bit of an understeer bias IMO, as that lets you keep the power on and keep the car planted through the direction changes without chasing it. And lift throttle oversteer is bad, as it makes you brake early to limit your decel rate when you have to slow down a lot right at the end of a slalom. I've got a video somewhere of me screwing that one up badly...
Knurled. said:In reply to dps214 :
IME, to go 40 you need gearing that runs to 70, unless you like hitting the rev limiter like the fist of an angry god. Tires be spinnin' and faces be grinnin'.
And if you ain't got tirespin problems, that is because you ain't cornering hard enough yet.
I did say "in the future". Meaning when ND prices get sub-$15k. People already spend more than that for Stock All class cars, and all wheel drive is nowhere near as fun. (I mean, no, don't go for an ND, they suck. Wait until after I get my RF)
Anyways, I've heard enough bad things about rallycrossing BRZs that I'd avoid it. Something about the stability control fighting you constantly. Rear drive really needs to be thrown sideways into corners so you can drive straight out, and the nannies apparently don't let you do that. They also seem rather wide, and width is important as long as course designers make slaloms that Miatas and E30s can drive straight through. Maybe on paper it's a couple of inches, but when you're driving on cones in a narrower car, it makes a difference, and the rear drive classes are often won by tenths of a second because in RWD the main limitation is the course, not the car.
I think neither of us really have a complete enough data set to come to a real conclusion here. But our Nationals experience was that even being geared for low 60s it was beneficial to use first gear as much as possible. And we fairly easily won with the second heaviest and tied for second widest car in the class (with the brz/frs). The heaviest and widest car (a 350z) was running times that would have had him in the lead pack with us but he had car troubles and couldn't run those times consistently. So while I don't necessarily think you're wrong, there's certainly a lot more going on and other factors can over power width and weight.
MrChaos saidi mean shouldnt you be pulling the abs and traction control fuses anyway?
That depends on the car and personal preference. I liked the ABS in a friend's 2.2l Outback Sport, he would disable it, we posted similar times to each other. The ABS in a 2.5RS is annoyingly bad and I'll disable it too. (You'd think it would be the other way around) The ABS in my S40 seemed perfect for loose surface and I used it heavily. The ABS in my S60 is part of the all wheel drive system so disabling it would be dumb, but I usually turned off the throttle cut portion of the stability control while leaving the ABS part on, and just let it do its thing. OTOH that is the opposite of a competitive car 
Too damned wide, steering too slow, and too much turbo lag. But on a smooth open course it was giggleworthy.
In reply to dps214 :
i'll admit to not having been to Nationals since 2016, that is something I hope to rectify in 2020. My experiences suggest that narrower and smaller is always better, assuming it is driven well. The largest RWD car I ever personally saw do well was an E36.
Knurled. said:In reply to dps214 :
i'll admit to not having been to Nationals since 2016, that is something I hope to rectify in 2020. My experiences suggest that narrower and smaller is always better, assuming it is driven well. The largest RWD car I ever personally saw do well was an E36.
For those not planning to go to nationals, however, whether a big car is going to be miserable or fun will depend a lot on what your local courses look like. Up here, the courses usually have tight areas and some smoother, faster sections. So the nimble cars do well in the tight spots, the higher powered grippy cars do better in the less tight spots. It can make for an interesting mix of who gets the top spots, depending on the day and which location.
In reply to rslifkin :
Very true. And in that respect, our SR class locally is basically a run watcha brung catchall class for people who aren't concerned with any of that.
rslifkin said:For those not planning to go to nationals, however, whether a big car is going to be miserable or fun will depend a lot on what your local courses look like. Up here, the courses usually have tight areas and some smoother, faster sections. So the nimble cars do well in the tight spots, the higher powered grippy cars do better in the less tight spots.
Yes, but there is nothing stopping someone from giving the nimble cars higher power also :P
Knurled is right in that dimensions will drive what the best cars are, but that said, the FRBZS86 thing isn't that challenged dimensionally. Its got 1" more track width than an ND and its not exactly a long car.
Its cheap, readily available, and has a roof.
ProDarwin said:rslifkin said:For those not planning to go to nationals, however, whether a big car is going to be miserable or fun will depend a lot on what your local courses look like. Up here, the courses usually have tight areas and some smoother, faster sections. So the nimble cars do well in the tight spots, the higher powered grippy cars do better in the less tight spots.
Yes, but there is nothing stopping someone from giving the nimble cars higher power also :P
Knurled is right in that dimensions will drive what the best cars are, but that said, the FRBZS86 thing isn't that challenged dimensionally. Its got 1" more track width than an ND and its not exactly a long car.
Its cheap, readily available, and has a roof.
its also been campaigned in actual rally so there are set ups and parts available that are off road specific. Also mostly subaru parts bin suspension stuff.
In reply to MrChaos :
Rally suspension doesn't seem to be the optimal for rallycross, though. It tends to be far too stiff, at least for low-end (sub-$10k/corner) suspension. Rallycross doesn't have any concern about landing at 80mph, just finding grip on grass and dirt at sub-60mph.
That is the interesting and frustrating part. There as of yet isn't any "known". So there's no proven fomula to try (frustrating), but there's also great gains to be had if you can approach the problem as a technician and find the formula.
The largest problem the Frisbee has is the same problem the Miata has: It has an IRS, so it can't put power down coming out of a corner. No antisquat to drive the tires into the ground and generate grip to yeet you at the next corner.
Maybe I should hold off on doing my "PR all the things" campaign with my '81 RX-7, and bring my '84 out of semi retirement with a new floor and an hugely powerful engine like when it had it is prime, just to show the whippersnappers how it's done. (Narrator: He never placed higher than 3rd in MR or second fastest rear driver in M2) (Rebuttal: the car was fastest rear driver in 2011 and 2012, and second/third in 2014, and I was 1.1 seconds out of 1st in the largest class in 2014, and was .246 from fastest RWD in 2011, and woulda been first if the suspension didn't break...)
isnt PR the $$$$$ class?
In reply to MrChaos :
If it is, that's a new development. Prepared has always been undersubscribed and treated as a "Stock with rally tires" class. There's an amazing amount of things you are allowed to do in Prepared. And the car I have not only has historical provenance (it won PR at nationals, once), it's also a fun car to drive daily, and in Prepared legal trim is actually pretty competitive on paper: it's about as light as an NA , the suspension works, the car has good sightlines, it's relatively narrow, and you can get about 165 usable horsepower from an unopened 12A with the right Prepared-legal parts. That's plenty good within the limitations of the class. If I was allowed to do suspension geometry alterations then I'd want 300hp, but that is what the mod car is for. It also would lead to a lot of breaking things, which is what makes the mod car unpleasant.
That said, I've spent many thousands of dollars trying to acquire the parts to keep the car prepared-legal, which is why it is 2020 and still a work in progress and not out there flinging dirt three years ago when I got it, so maybe you have a point.
The biggest hurdle I see to running in Prepared is having to run against moxnix, who owns face. But to be honest, if I placed second to him I'd still feel accomplished.
In reply to Knurled. :
i might be thinking of PA and PF
In reply to MrChaos :
If I were to run in PA, with a car bult for it, I'd run a WRX with an external wastegate (Prepared legal: manifolds and turbo controls are free as long as the turbo is in the same spot) with a Carberry tune (stock computer) with all the antilag. Might be able to do 300hp and 400ft-lb on pump gas, for a while anyway, as long as the transmission holds up, but the key is the Carberry ROM that allows tuning tricks that make the engine even idle while partially spooled; I've rode in a MA car with this setup and the throttle response is explosive. "Anti lift kits" are legal so I'd push the boundaries of that rule. Struts are free as long as they use the stock pickup points, so there are some major geometry gains to be had there even without modifying the chassis. Brakes are free, so 10" solid disks and aluminum calipers all around. Etc.
I have never seen anyone push the rules in Prepared...
ProDarwin said:Yes, but there is nothing stopping someone from giving the nimble cars higher power also :P
Of course, but they tend to be a little more squirrely at higher speeds, so they don't stay as planted and put power down as well in the slaloms.
Knurled. said:The biggest hurdle I see to running in Prepared is having to run against moxnix, who owns face. But to be honest, if I placed second to him I'd still feel accomplished.
I don't even know what that means.
the biggest expense in prepared rear is making sure you have mud tires in addition to your regular tires says the guy who keeps coming in second place.
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