Should I? Are you? If so, what vehicle is your AX chariot? I'm wondering if the folks that downshift to first are driving low powered cars, or cars with power bands that are only in the upper range.
I have been told to "leave it in second the whole course". And while that works, I recently also learned that I was leaving a bunch of time on the table by not downshifting. Like about 1-1.5 secs on a 60.00 course.
How slow was your course? In all the years of autox & rallyx, only once have I run a course where it was advantageous to go to 1st - a Rallyx course that had a super tight hairpin in the mud where you couldn't carry in any speed whatsoever.
Yeah, in both my E46 325i and the Manic Miata, I pretty much never shift at all after the initial 1>2 upshift.
[edit] Neither car is a power monster, but both have solid torque down pretty low in the rev range.
The course was really tight with two, very tight, turn around cone style corners at each end of the course. Followed by slaloms before and after each and a crossover in the center. Essentially a figure 8.
I've heard the whole "leave it in second as that prevents the chassis from being upset and enables to driver to focus". And that rings true.
But on the runs I experimented with a downshift, despite being a little addled at this new attempt and ruining my entry into both of these 180° turns, I turned in a consistent time of 1 second-ish faster. STR prepped NC.
I compete mostly in E Street in my 99 Miata sport. I've driven a friend's 19 civic sport in H Street a few times.
In the four years I've been competing, in over 100 events, I've never shifted to first.
We have had a few locally that were tight enough that first was the "right" gear, but my old high miles transmission would only do it if I got the double clutching and rev matching pretty perfect and I got so focused on it that I couldn't get my line/braking points to be consistent or smooth. My fastest runs have always ended up being leaving it in second with a good old fashioned clutch kick mid-corner to get the engine up and into the power/boost. Plus it is fun.
Probably not the best approach if you are not in a RWD car and may not work if you have a ton of grip on the drive wheels, but it was very effective for me. Otherwise I'd be 1000+ rpm below boost threshold at WOT coming out of the turn waiting for revs to slowly build until the turbo started working again.
Probably worth mentioning the car was around 3,000RPM upon exit of these corners in second gear (about 25-30mph) And the NC doesn't really wake up until 4,000.
I have done it before, and it can be worth it. You may find you will have to double clutch to get first to engage well.
Single cone turn you say...
Was there room to try a late apex?
The Abomination I frequently launch in 2nd and never touch the shifter. It's a 1500 pound Spitfire full of Mazda parts. 1st is good for paddock speeds and creating tire dust.
The G35 launches in 1st and after a 1-2 shift I almost never touch the stick again. For me to get back into 1st, the course is going to have to be painfully tight and have a couple of tight elements back to back and close together. That or I've looped it.
Anecdotal storytime. A new BMW driver was in my run group several years ago. He was rowing the gears trying to keep the engine up in the top of the powerband. After listening to his first two runs, I casually walked over to him and suggested a 1-2 shift as soon after launch as possible and leave it in 2nd for the rest of the run. That every shift was worth about 1/10 of a second on the clock. He came back in after the next run and had beat his best time by 3 seconds, just by not shifting.
My high mileage E28 will not go back into first willingly so I leave it in second even though I am way out of the powerband in the slow stuff and just focus on carrying as much speed as possible on a good line instead. I'm happy with my run times but I know if I could get it into first without all the extra effort/wear to do it I'd be faster.
In my Subaru on the other hand with a 25 year newer transmission (still high mileage) with larger synchro's it easily drops back into first, it's a NA Legacy wagon so I need that gear and it makes a significant difference to my times when I've rallycrossed or autocrossed it.
If you're new to either or not able to make that downshift efficiently then second is probably the way to go and focus conserving that momentum through the course.
Or just buy a car with a DSG and make the rest of us look stupid lol
I'm in a supercharged mustang and I get out of first as fast as possible. On the very rare occasions when I think first might be a good idea, I'm shocked at how fast I'm back in second. I also think what gears are in the rear end is a big factor. I honestly don't know anyone off the top of my head that uses first after they launch. I'd launch in second if I could, but I prefer the smell of tires and brake pads to clutch.
There are some sites I've gone to in Florida that kind of forced 1st gear with how tight they were for their turn arounds.
Our local course has a very tight right-hander that turns uphill. If I leave it in second, my CSP Miata just doesn't feel like it has the torque to get moving again quickly, and it's a very healthy engine that makes good power. I found downshifting (not doing anything fancy, just shoving it into first) saved me a lot of time every run. People in more powerful cars leave it in second and have no issue.
I used to do it with my 1.6 NA Miata when they were still classed in B Stock. The 'big block' 1.8 cars had a torque advantage, I got really good at 2->1 clutchless downshifts while left foot braking into tight hairpins. But the Mazda box was awesome. Really helped on small lots or turnarounds.
John Welsh said:Single cone turn you say...
Was there room to try a late apex?
Even with the correct racing line it's still slow due to the tight radius and the lousy chipseal surface. The top DS driver (usually PAX's top five) drove my car and used 1st for exiting.
this is what started my experiment.
90% of the time if I'm downshifting to 1st, it's on a course with a tight 180deg turnaround. The only other place I'd commonly downshift to 1st is on a course that has a section of very tight low-speed gates, I would usually drop into 1st entering the tight section so I can better control speed through it and accelerate out of it. If you have traditional hydraulic power steering, the higher revs also help keep your steering assist up.
Edit: This is my experience mostly with the AE92, the 86 is similar but the increased torque means a reduced need for 1st.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Very valid points.
Drive cars with a solid midrange torque curve and its not needed. If the turn was that tight that others were downshifing, the Forte would be trying to light the inside tire on fire coming out in second still. But it had a solid torque curve from 2000-6000 rpms.
Defined motorsports said:The top DS driver (usually PAX's top five) drove my car and used 1st for exiting.
Now you have to overcome the phenomena that a borrowed car is faster. I think it is the rental car syndrome where you can make a car do fast things if you really have no emotional attachment to the car and little repercussions if the car breaks. Ha!
Back in the olden days, when my 82Camaro was stock other than a cam and intake, it was the very rare course that had me shifting to second... 305 with a th200 and 2.93 gears and 6200rpm gave me roughly 45mph in first.
So, at least to a certain extent, it depends on the car.
Not sure why this is even a question, because the answer depends entirely upon the first gear ratio, vehicle weight, and horsepower. I've had cars with short first gears I never used on-track. I have a one-off special where first is good to 60mph and use it all the time. There is no black-and-white answer.
We run a tiny course at AMP where I'm forced to do it in the FORS. Not only is it faster, but I also don't have to worry about dreaded LSPI.
Because I can be a ham fisted driver I (thankfully) don't need to downshift the Zoomboni. The mustang drivetrain but with a 4.3 Miata rear diff means I can launch in 3rd gear and just leave it there. 0-75 mph in one gear and silly torque everywhere.
kb58 said:Not sure why this is even a question
Careful...
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