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yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
5/19/22 8:53 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

My Director said his Tesla was overcharged. What does that mean? 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/19/22 9:00 p.m.

Not sure! Normally, you set their max charge to 80% for daily use for best battery life. But you can set it to 100% for road trips. Maybe that's what he meant?

wae
wae PowerDork
5/19/22 9:31 p.m.

Looks like there's another EV manufacturer warning people not to park their cars indoors because they might catch fire when they're turned off:

"Ford urges some of its SUVs to be parked outside over fire risks - ABC News"

Oh, those aren't EVs....

tuna55
tuna55 MegaDork
5/20/22 10:38 a.m.
wae said:

Looks like there's another EV manufacturer warning people not to park their cars indoors because they might catch fire when they're turned off:

"Ford urges some of its SUVs to be parked outside over fire risks - ABC News"

Oh, those aren't EVs....

WSJ says 16 fires out of 39K vehicles. The Bolt, if I remember correctly, before the battery recall, was 6 out of 80K.

Yup, I think I am going to be just fine.

 

Incidentally, Tunakid #2 just started a volunteer position at an aquarium in Hendersonville. It's not a super long drive, 90 miles round trip, but a 1300 foot elevation change. Tunawife takes him up there on Saturdays. She had to pay for parking anyway. There is a lot which charges a few dollars to park (same as all of the others) but has a free charger. She got home with ten fewer miles than she left, even though the Bolt doesn't have fast charging. Elevation works in our favor there.

RevRico
RevRico UltimaDork
5/20/22 10:55 a.m.
racerfink said:

The Pinto's problem was the gas tanks were punctured by the bumper when hit from the rear.

in every case of ICE cars being recalled for fires that I know of, it was electrical issues that caused them, not the gasoline.

As for fire departments and EV's, the problem lies in the MASSIVE amount of water it takes to put out a battery fire.  About 28,000 gals compared to less than 500 for an ICE car.  Also, if you get in a wreck in your EV, the fire department has to have special equipment to make sure your vehicle is not a shock hazard.  So what happens when you either try to step out of your car, or a good samaritan approaches your car shortly after an accident?

I hear Tesla is using cheaper, shorter range batteries in some cars now because of the cost of Lithium.

All that water is going to total the vehicle regardless, why not just use sand and suffocate the fire? It's cheap, it's abundant, a dump truck is cheaper than a fire truck. Good enough for a magnesium or thermite fire which burn so hot they catch water on fire. 

I do think that emergency response is going to be a bigger hurdle than charging, and probably deserves a lot more attention than its getting. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/20/22 11:06 a.m.

It would be interesting to hear Woody's comments on that. I know that Telsas have a pyrotechnic fuse to disable the high voltage battery in the event of an accident and there's a big labeled wire that you can cut to kill the car. Not sure what happens if the battery pack is compromised, though. Probably nothing good.

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE SuperDork
5/20/22 11:41 a.m.

The only source I've seen it is in Sandy Munroe videos, but a teardown of the Plaid battery shows their current fire mitigation; they have these little pyro-plugs along the battery pack and are further insulating the individual packs from the others, so you'll have essentially a firewall between each line of boxes, that then are stacked side-to-side. The goal Sandy thought, was to mitigate and control potential fire by keeping oxygen from getting into compromised cells to allow them to oxidize. I think the plugs can open normally to let out moisture, then clamp shut when they see high (150F) temperatures?

Otherwise? They need literally tens of thousands of gallons of water to put out because no firetruck carries sand to strangle the oxidization process. Assuming EV really takes off, fire departments will need some kind of oxygen displacement system to accurately control these fires.

It's part of why I also hope that Lithium-iron Phosphates REALLY take off, far above even what China mandates. They aren't "fire-proof", but you really have to WORK to get the damn things to go up in a blaze because of that iron group; they also now, live over 2.5 times longer than lithium-ions (and when there are 2012 Model S's with over 600,000 miles on OG battery packs, that means you're coming out ahead in emissions massively) and their discharge rates are far higher; if it wasn't for that iron grouping adding weight, we'd probably see them on EV drag cars.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/20/22 12:15 p.m.

I believe one of the current methods of dealing with a burning EV is to simply drop it into a dumpster full of water.

Here's an interesting report about vehicle fires. ICE vehicles are far, far more likely to set themselves on fire without an accident than as part of one. On page 9, it says that fires due to collision were only 5% of the total. A fuel fire starting underhood is a lot more likely. High pressure flammable fluid being pumped around in aging rubber lines is a problem.
https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v19i2.pdf

Tesla is putting the LFP batteries in about a quarter of their production right now, mostly in China but I think they're in "employee only" standard range 3s in the US. Their lower energy density is probably the biggest problem right now.

It would be interesting to know what the number of fires (per x cars) of Tesla's fleet is versus the national average. Tesla specifically because they're the only significant pure EV manufacturer, so you've got a decent sample size. They also haven't had a known defect like the LG batteries in the Bolts, which might skew the numbers.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
5/20/22 2:43 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

In my opinion the risk of fire is, can you get out?   If so let it burn. Then get a new one.  This is my Chevy Blazer. 

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE SuperDork
5/20/22 5:23 p.m.

There's another point that Frenchy reminded me of- cars that have been on fire typically can't be saved without major structural repair, because said fuel fires go hot and fast so quickly they'll remove heat treatments. If that fire is consuming plastic and oil in the engine bay, even if it's controlled quickly it can be only 20-30 seconds before it warms the surrounding areas to their ignition point. It's been some time since my fire classes, but I remember most car fires are complete losses for that reason alone.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/20/22 6:18 p.m.

I would assume that any vehicle on fire is done unless it has on-board fire suppression. It's more the things in the vicinity of the fire that would concern me.

I'd love to see real numbers on the frequency of EV fires compared to ICE. I suspect they're no worse and possibly better.

Boost_Crazy
Boost_Crazy Dork
5/20/22 9:45 p.m.

In reply to preach (dudeist priest) :

 

CA Has An EV Grid Problem
 

That reminds me, it's more than just EV's. There is a big push to eliminate natural gas, which currently supplies a lot of our energy. Some cities are not allowing natural gas in new construction, with more to follow. That means the electrical grid will need to take up the slack. 
 

I got involved in an interesting project this week. It's a micro grid, a small community within a city that is being disconnected from the grid and run off solar and battery. All of the gas appliances are being converted to electric. The service sizes are being doubled, and non critical loads are going to be fed with smart breakers that will shut circuits if the batteries are low. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
5/20/22 11:35 p.m.
GIRTHQUAKE said:

There's another point that Frenchy reminded me of- cars that have been on fire typically can't be saved without major structural repair, because said fuel fires go hot and fast so quickly they'll remove heat treatments. If that fire is consuming plastic and oil in the engine bay, even if it's controlled quickly it can be only 20-30 seconds before it warms the surrounding areas to their ignition point. It's been some time since my fire classes, but I remember most car fires are complete losses for that reason alone.

Well I look for engine fires in Jaguars. Because the engine was running fine up to the point of fire.  Then as long as the hood isn't lifted the fire will go out before damage is done to the engine.   ( other than superficial ignition and fuel lines).   Yeh the rest of the car may be scrap metal.  But those can be purchased for less than scrap metal prices.  

preach (dudeist priest)
preach (dudeist priest) GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/22/22 6:59 a.m.

Another good story:

Repurpose, Recycle 

I am glad people like VW are looking into it.

preach (dudeist priest)
preach (dudeist priest) GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/28/22 12:36 p.m.

This may end up being the dump for preach's EV thoughts and info, but I am ok with that.

The cost of EV ownership 

 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
5/28/22 1:21 p.m.

If you are going to post something as a comparison  there should at least be some balance to it.   
    Notice they talk about daily depreciation of the Tesla but no such depreciation of price comparable ICE's such as Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes Benz?  
 They talk about battery replacement but no such discussion of the cost of engine or transmission replacement. 
  Well,  just take that article with a grain of salt.  
 

Here's the way I look at those things.  I buy a new vehicle  and maintain it by the dealer to the schedule.  In return I get 20 years, 400,000 miles out of it  and 100% depreciation.  
     Gas is more expensive than free sunshine or wind.  Plus I can't own a well and refinery. 
   
       

preach (dudeist priest)
preach (dudeist priest) GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/28/22 4:44 p.m.

Everything with a grain of salt.

I have never had to replace an engine or transmission at 80-100k though.

Initial purchase price, quick charge at home, batteries, all else.

Fortunately we are still somewhat watching a fledgling as it grows.

Rons
Rons GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
5/28/22 4:58 p.m.
frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
5/30/22 7:54 a.m.

In reply to preach (dudeist priest) :

In all likelihood the original batteries will last the life of a EV car. Just like the engine and Trans will last the life of a ICE.  
All bet's are off on used though either ICE or EV. When you buy used, you take the gamble on how the previous owner used and maintained it. 

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