I am waiting as well. My theory is that people who buy expensive cars are likely to buy a new shiny EV expensive car, see Tesla, Rivian, etc. The cost-effective crowd buys minivans, but is going to work that spreadsheet hard. I am looking forward to the Canoo, not because it's a minivan, but because someone finally realized that you can actually sell a skateboard thing with different bodies affordably. I hope they succeed. One day, a minivan shell fits there nicely.
Here you go. Call it a minivan or a CUV or a Tall wagon. A buddy of mine has one and with the dual motor option it even has AWD;
NGTD said:Here you go. Call it a minivan or a CUV or a Tall wagon. A buddy of mine has one and with the dual motor option it even has AWD;
I think a minivan has to seat 7 or 8 with cargo room behind.
Honestly, I'm shocked it took this long to get to good Hybrid Minivans. The tech has been there for a while, right?
2011 Sienna is rated at 19/24
2021 is rated at 36/36
Thats a really impressive difference.
I was interested in the Pacifica plug-in hybrid, but when shopping I noticed that every single one of the cheap ones listed on cargurus was a lemon law buyback. Dozens and dozens of them for sale, all at one time, all lemon law buybacks. That scared me away. Maybe I scared too easily, based on the feedback in this thread.
NGTD said:Here you go. Call it a minivan or a CUV or a Tall wagon. A buddy of mine has one and with the dual motor option it even has AWD;
I wouldn't call that a minivan at all because it doesn't have the utility of a minivan. It's not even particularly big inside as crossover SUVs go, thanks to the stupid sloped rear glass and roof.
dculberson said:I was interested in the Pacifica plug-in hybrid, but when shopping I noticed that every single one of the cheap ones listed on cargurus was a lemon law buyback. Dozens and dozens of them for sale, all at one time, all lemon law buybacks. That scared me away. Maybe I scared too easily, based on the feedback in this thread.
Agreed. Part of the cost benefit with an EV is that there are simply far fewer parts to break. Other than the [no sarcasm] incredible engineering prowess demonstrated by the Prius, it's not a wonderful idea to stuff two complete propulsion systems into the same car. That's a parts count alarm bell. Also, I have a Pacifica, and it's okay, but not okay enough that I want the FCA guys to double the parts count and still get the rest right.
The authors points are good. I'd also throw in that manufacturers tilt towards high margin items. There's more margin to be made from taking a Corolla platform, placing a SUV body on it and filling it with leather than there is to start with a significantly larger platform like a Minivan.
Also, there's the Disneyland/roadtrip thing. Soccer mom may be a taxi service for the little ones 50 weeks out of the year, but they may be understandably nervous about tossing half-a-dozen people inside with their stuff and having to recharge every 250 miles.
tuna55 said:NGTD said:Here you go. Call it a minivan or a CUV or a Tall wagon. A buddy of mine has one and with the dual motor option it even has AWD;
I think a minivan has to seat 7 or 8 with cargo room behind.
Note that the Y is available with an optional third row and there is cargo space behind, so technically it does meet that short definition. But I'd call it a CUV because the shape is optimized for aero instead of interior capacity, and a minivan has to prioritize capacity. The sliding side door is open to discussion.
As noted, I think minivans are suffering from the stigma of, well, minivans. My sister in law would not be caught dead in a minivan but happily hauls her three kidlets around in a Tahoe, which is basically a body-on-frame minivan that weighs over 5500 lbs if you squint at it.
If Stellantis ever gets their EV excremement co-located, I would expect them to be the first to do it well. It may be VW that wins the race, which would be a spectacular fumble on Dodge's part. The skateboard chassis design should work pretty nicely with a minivan but it will have to be designed from scratch as an EV to do it properly.
Here are all the "it's coming soon, honest!" VW microbus concepts of the last two decades, just because.
NGTD said:Here you go. Call it a minivan or a CUV or a Tall wagon. A buddy of mine has one and with the dual motor option it even has AWD;
Sir, I have owned minivans. I have worked on minivans. Minivans have been very useful to me in my driving life. Sir, that is no minivan. 
Seriously, though, sliding doors and 3 rows or it's not a minivan.
Kreb (Forum Supporter) said:Also, there's the Disneyland/roadtrip thing. (redacted stereotype) may be a taxi service for the little ones 50 weeks out of the year, but they may be understandably nervous about tossing half-a-dozen people inside with their stuff and having to recharge every 250 miles.
I just returned from a Denver-Tucson trip to visit family (1800mi round trip) in my Grand Caravan, accompanied by way too much crap and a (couple months shy of 3yr old) toddler. Way out we stopped overnight half way (two eight hour days) and the way back we cannonballed in 15 hours. The dash meter hovered between 21 and 26 mpg, somewhat depressing but far better than the 18.5 I see in my normal rounds.
Our longest stints were a hair over two hours, or 130 ish miles. On the return trip we alternated interstate rest stops and gas stations, so one pee stop followed by a fuel and pee stop the next time. I was trying to budget 10min at rest areas and 15min at gas stations but it varied a little around that.
I would be very happy with a 250 mile range, that would align quite well with our expected stop intervals, and adding a few minutes at those stops would be no bother, if charging rates were similar to what Tesla can deliver currently. We were already discussing how we would take more time on the same road trip the next time to allow free time to stop and actually see the sights and kitschy roadside attractions, so a little extra time on the trip would be fine.
I've been wondering for some time why no one has done an EV minivan. I'd take an EV minivan in a hearbeat.
I wonder aloud if fleet sales are at play here as well? My guess is that no one could afford to keep a minivan in their lineup without fleet sales to bolster the numbers. EV's are a tough sell as a rental car right now, unless its something cool like a Tesla.
I predict electric delivery vans will spawn electric minivans. Or the Canoo will come to market.
Thrifty, of course, has gone big into EVs. I suspect they chose Teslas not because they are cool but because they have the most mature and easy-to-use fast charging network. You don't want your renters to have to fool around with charging, you want them to pull up, plug in and done. That's only possible on the Supercharger network at this time.
Renters don't care a whole lot what car they get as long as it's big enough and clean enough and works. It's that last point that's making the difference right now.
I think it's probably because the reasons why people buy EVs and the reasons why people buy minivans have not lined up very well with each other, at least not until recently.
People buy EVs to be green, to have cool new technology, and because they're fast. Minivans aren't any of these things, they're big, have poor aero and fuel efficiency, accelerate poorly (although they'll beat a Miata!) and are not "cool" at all. For new car buyers (who are what the manufactuers care about) minivans are about practicality above all else -- reliable transportation for a large family at a relatively modest price.
EV tech has entered that realm in the last couple years so I'm sure electric Odysseys and Caravans are being designed, but it's not surprising to me that they're the tail end of the wave rather than the leading one. Parents with small kids are often conservative in their vehicle choice.
I wonder where the batteries will go in an electric minivan? A low floor is a important design feature in this kind of vehicle, and I don't know if there's room for the Tesla packaging approach without compromising that.
And yes, I agree that the Tesla above is not a minivan. 3 rows, low floor, lots of headroom, significant storage behind the 3rd row, and sliding rear doors -- that's a US market minivan.
We have the plug-in Pacifica Hybrid folks mentioned above. It's great for what it is, but it's very "lite" on the EV side of things. There's no freeway mode to hold battery charge for around-town use, it fires up the gas engine every time the coolant dips below ~180 degrees (often here in winter) and generally uses the gas engine more frequently than we expected. It also doesn't effectively preheat the cabin while on the charger, unlike most EVs.
That said, it's been great for the 18 months we've had it so far. We have probably used 60/40 or 70/30 EV/Gas miles, due to a short commute and only a few road trips. It's extremely comfortable. On road trips we average 30mpg when we can't charge. In summer months we go a month or two between fillups, but only a couple weeks in the winter.
It's not that way now, but when we bought you could get $8k off the MSRP from Chrysler, and then still get a $7500 tax rebate. Took the MSRP from $42k down to effectively $28k, making it the least expensive minivan on the market. We were able to afford a fully loaded model because of the discounts.
When did the Sienna go Hybrid?
In reply to Javelin (Forum Supporter) :
I believe it was the 2021 model year. It's a weird looking van IMO but the mpgs and Toyota reliability are tough to beat.
So my excursion is a sliding door away from being a minivan? Neat.
I have nothing else to contribute to this discussion other than I would seriously consider a full electric minivan down the road.
In reply to RevRico :
I think your Excursion is a full-size van with a truck front end.
RevRico said:So my excursion is a sliding door away from being a minivan? Neat.
I think it needs a lower floor/less ground clearance.
Another big thing I haven't seen mentioned here is that the expected fold flat seating in minivans is currently pretty incompatible with the floor being a battery pack. From what I remember, even the Pacifica Hybrid couldn't fold the seats flat due to the battery location.
tuna55 said:dculberson said:I was interested in the Pacifica plug-in hybrid, but when shopping I noticed that every single one of the cheap ones listed on cargurus was a lemon law buyback. Dozens and dozens of them for sale, all at one time, all lemon law buybacks. That scared me away. Maybe I scared too easily, based on the feedback in this thread.
Agreed. Part of the cost benefit with an EV is that there are simply far fewer parts to break. Other than the [no sarcasm] incredible engineering prowess demonstrated by the Prius, it's not a wonderful idea to stuff two complete propulsion systems into the same car. That's a parts count alarm bell. Also, I have a Pacifica, and it's okay, but not okay enough that I want the FCA guys to double the parts count and still get the rest right.
I agree with that sentiment for most manufacturers, but Toyota has done a damn fine job of doing this for a while. Enough to give me some confidencein the Sienna.
On a parts count note, in the Sienna the hybrid has a lot less parts in the transmission (compared with the 8 speed auto), and a lot less parts to the engine (I4 vs. V6). So some of that complexity may balance out.
tuna55 said:I am waiting as well. My theory is that people who buy expensive cars are likely to buy a new shiny EV expensive car, see Tesla, Rivian, etc. The cost-effective crowd buys minivans, but is going to work that spreadsheet hard. I am looking forward to the Canoo, not because it's a minivan, but because someone finally realized that you can actually sell a skateboard thing with different bodies affordably. I hope they succeed. One day, a minivan shell fits there nicely.
Rivian is supposedly planning a minivan-type people hauler, and have filed a patent for their sliding door. Hopefully the sliding door is included on the people hauler.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:I think it's probably because the reasons why people buy EVs and the reasons why people buy minivans have not lined up very well with each other, at least not until recently.
People buy EVs to be green, to have cool new technology, and because they're fast. Minivans aren't any of these things, they're big, have poor aero and fuel efficiency, accelerate poorly (although they'll beat a Miata!) and are not "cool" at all. For new car buyers (who are what the manufactuers care about) minivans are about practicality above all else -- reliable transportation for a large family at a relatively modest price.
EV tech has entered that realm in the last couple years so I'm sure electric Odysseys and Caravans are being designed, but it's not surprising to me that they're the tail end of the wave rather than the leading one. Parents with small kids are often conservative in their vehicle choice.
I think this is a pretty solid take.
The batteries will go under the floor. A few inches of floor thickness won't be a deal-breaker, anywhere else would be. Given that there's no need for an exhaust system under the floor, you may not end up with a taller floor than you would with the ICE version anyhow. I might have to go look under some minivans at a dealership to see how close the floor level is to the minimum ground clearance. Assuming I can find a dealership with inventory.
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