Exploring miata track safety

1999 nb. Currently no airbags, stock seats and belts, fully stitch welded, hard dog duece roll bar with a harness bar added.

Use Scenario: occasionally street driven in spring and fall, mostly autocross,  some hpde on rovals

I want to get more into hpde in the next few years, and begin tweaking the safety level of the car to suit. I am NOT comfortable with the current safety gear for how fast the car is, especially with some of the local rovals lack of soft concrete walls. Im legitimately capable of chasing down c5 vettes with this in current configuration. 

I also want to try hillclimbs if i can. Looks like a hoot!

I started down the mental path of building a whole new car, but want to see what i would need to do to bring current car up to spec, and if i can live with the compromises. 

I know the current bar doesn't come remotely close to passing broomstick test. Current seats aren't really suited for five points. 

What are the regs i need to meet, and what is the best way to streetably meet them? Again, not a dd. Or even a weekly car. But one i like to run for icecream with the kid in, or drive to a cruise night or church on an occasion. 

I know what my thoughts are, but would love to have a discussion about this.

At minimum, I'd suggest a real bolt-in roll bar, fixed-back race seat, and 6-point harness with what you're doing. Unfortunately, though, you're entering the territory where you transition away from the design and theory of street safety gear and towards the design and theory of race safety gear, and they don't really play well with each other. Does it /have/ to stay streetable?

A good place to start would be to pick which orgs you want to do events with and look at their rule book. 

Looking at the SCCA hill climb safety rules, you would need to swap out the bar for an approved 4-point one, add harnesses, and add fire suppression.  

I'm a huge advocate of all the gear possible but in this case you still want the occasional street drive. It's pssobile to find a mid-point.

I'll second what Tom said; a proper roll hoop w/harness bar, seat and harness.  I'd also suggest you get a head & neck restraint as well as a proper full face helmet once you've installed the the seat and bar.

You're probably already  doing this but if parts of the track are sketchy then slow down....simple as that. One aspect of HPDEs I find there to be a misconception, is that you are somehow supposed to drive 10/10ths everywhere. If people want to drive at full race speeds then get a fully race prepared car. 

If you are going to do hillclimbs then I'd want a full cage; that will pretty much make the car not street friendly.

 My .02

There is risk using racing gear on the street and risk in using street gear on the track.  
    Well, any aggressively driven street car carries a greater risk.  Helmets protect your head from Rollbars  but limit your side vision. Plus the added weight to your neck calls for a HANS device.  
    The racing seat is hard on your back and butt when you hit pot holes. But seriously important on a race track. 
  I'm going to start an argument here.  But fuel cells don't seriously improve your safety except in extremely limited circumstances.  Proof?  LeMons and Champ car both allow stock gas tanks  in their racing series.  
 Then there are arm restraints and fire retardant systems. Again both only help in a tiny percentage of racing accidents. 

Oh, also worth mentioning: I think hillclimbs are one of the most dangerous activities you can do in a car. Most of what you hit at a race track is designed to absorb energy. Trees only absorb solar energy, not cars. They stop those instantly. 

Hill climbs would require a fully dedicated race car with an FIA-legal cage for me to want to do it.

Tom Suddard said:

Oh, also worth mentioning: I think hillclimbs are one of the most dangerous activities you can do in a car. Most of what you hit at a race track is designed to absorb energy. Trees only absorb solar energy, not cars. They stop those instantly. 

Worse than that they concentrate that energy into a point, hitting a tree sideways at speed can and does tear cars in half.  I'd rather hit a concrete wall than a tree.

As for the Miata, how tall are you?  If you're less than 6', you can probably achieve a reasonable level of safety for track days by cutting out the OEM rear seat mounts, bolting a streetable (non-halo) race seat to the floor, and adding a max-height roll bar (tallest that will fit under soft top).  6-point harnesses for the track (along with HANS) and you can still use the OEM belts for the street.  This is what's in my Miata with Recaro Pole Position seats and a Hard Dog Hard Core bar (the non-hard top version, which actually does fit under the hard top, it just prevents you from using side latches).

If you're over 6 feet you probably need to combine that with a floor drop, which is going to get complicated (or at least ugly) if you want to keep carpet in the car.

+ 1 on Hillclimbs being extremely dangerous.  I'd want an FIA Rally spec cage at minimum, and that's not really compatible with a Miata.

Our track NA now has a full cage, and I'm installing a fire suppression system.  I wanted full W2W safety, even though it's an HPDE/TT car.  At this point, I consider it completely unsuited for street driving, though I've kept it registered for convenience.  It only goes to the gas station for fuel, or to Cars & Coffee a few times a year.   I do feel pretty comfortable about coming out of an on-track incident OK, though.  I would not have been as comfortable going much faster with just a rollbar/seat/harness setup.

As far as safety specs, look at the organizations you're likely to run with, and figure out what meets a variety of rulesets.

I'm to the point where I don't think I would do another Miata as a street/track dual purpose car.  It's just too much of a compromise to have the roll bar so close to your head.  I'd look at FRS/BRZ twins for a dual purpose HPDE car.

You guys are really mirroring my thoughts. 

Im 5'7, 250. (Trying to get skinnier, but plateaued at the current weight).

My general plan was a fresh hard dog bar (which one?? Seems like the hardcore may be it) with a harness bar, possibly door bars. Then fixed seats mounted where comfortable and safe, and 5/6 points.

I hadn't thought about hans or closed face helmets yet, or anything beyond fire suit. And fire suit seemed extreme, but potentially necessary. Add a coolsuit in there....

This snowballs quickly. However, a lot of the personal gear translates to other vehicles. 

I love this miata. Dad and i built it together, and it HAS to remain streetable for me to want to own it. 

It sounds like you have the right idea with a better rollbar, seat and harnesses. If it were me I'd spend on a Hans (doesn't need to be Hans brand though) over the fire suit but obviously when things go wrong the money spent on gear will seem insignificant. I think there's a way to buy used fire suits from pro teams (think NASCAR crew suits) that might be a good option if you don't mind whatever branding it comes with.

The seats and harnesses will make a big improvement on track keeping you planted in place and focused on controlling the car (and safer which is the goal here). The seats will take away from the car on the street though, they'll be harder to get in and out of and with minimum padding you will feel everything. If you can try out a few different options here (probably limited by what will actually fit in the car) that will probably make or break the car for you when it comes to ice cream runs and still enjoying the car in that way.

If you are planning on having an instructor in the car with you on track (autocross not as big of a deal) the passenger seat should provide equal harnesses and level of seat to whatever you are in, that doesn't mean the seat needs to be the same but it should have the same approvals. Those guys/gals are taking a risk going out with you and should feel confident strapping into whatever is there.

You're going to spend some money but if this THE TRACK CAR for you then this won't be wasted. It looks like an absolute weapon that you can continue to grow with and dial in so I think it is completely worth it. Someday the kid you are going for ice cream with might be doing their first laps in this car (beside you or behind the wheel) and then the money spent will be double worth it.

I describe HPDE as "risky as real racing with all of the expense, and none of the glory."  First time I showed at an event wearing fireproof gear, I got my @ss busted.  Now it's unremarkable.   It's hard to keep the red mist out of the cockpit, but as stated before, if you're concerned, SLOW DOWN.  Buy the best safety equipment you can, it's cheap compared to a life threatening disability.  

Why not go full tilt on cage. And wear a helmet, even on the street? Any argument about not being able to hear/see is negated by thousands of motorcyclists doing the exact same thing and dealing with the exact same issues. 

You'll deal with helmet hair, but use it to your advantage.

  "A helmet? What bike do you ride?"

"No, babe. Racecar"

The big decision is how you're going to drive it on the track.  If you're just planning the occasional, casual HPDE, running in the street groups on street tires the bar/harness/seat/hans is probably sufficient.  That said, anything can happen on track with other cars, and a Miata is likely going to get the worst of any incident involving another car.

Door bars are pretty tough to execute properly in a Miata without gutting the doors.  You might get some chassis stiffening, but you won't really improve side protection... there's just not enough space.

My vote is keep the street car street and build a track rat with a full cage. Hillclimb and street car are mutually exclusive in my book, which is why I wont run them. Even TT events I will only run at tracks with lots of runoff area because the G35 isn't built to hit a concrete wall at a high rate of speed. I'm not willing to sacrifice the streetability of the car to make it safer.

Thumbs up to hill climbs being dangerous. If you want to run them, build a car that can keep you alive going off a mountain and into a tree at speed. 

I'm leaning toward building a cage for the Abomination to run the more dangerous events but that is way down the list of projects I have. For now I just don't run them.

Rodan said:

The big decision is how you're going to drive it on the track.  If you're just planning the occasional, casual HPDE, running in the street groups on street tires the bar/harness/seat/hans is probably sufficient.  That said, anything can happen on track with other cars, and a Miata is likely going to get the worst of any incident involving another car.

Door bars are pretty tough to execute properly in a Miata without gutting the doors.  You might get some chassis stiffening, but you won't really improve side protection... there's just not enough space.

Personally I'm not a fan of the bolt-in door bars that are semi-popular the last few years.  Nobody talks about them for safety, it's all about chassis stiffening, and having a solid steel bar a couple inches my from hip seems like a bad idea in an accident.  Plus the front end of it is always in the space my left shin wants to be.  No thanks.

Definitely a head and neck support (I have a HANS and like the original concept, but the others are acceptable too).

Full cage is, IMHO, incompatible with street car use.  Going that route means getting a tow vehicle and a trailer and sacrificing your fun convertible on the street.  Theoretically could wear the belts and helmet on the street (although the latter may or may not be legal), but it becomes a total PITA and you'll stop driving it.  You can also forget ever taking a passenger anywhere. :)

I always thought roll bars  without wearing a helmet was a problem , 

And I am not sure you can wear a helmet on a street car , 

Hitting your head without  helmet on the roll bar would hurt !

Dusterbd13-michael said:

You guys are really mirroring my thoughts. 

Im 5'7, 250. (Trying to get skinnier, but plateaued at the current weight).

My general plan was a fresh hard dog bar (which one?? Seems like the hardcore may be it) with a harness bar, possibly door bars. Then fixed seats mounted where comfortable and safe, and 5/6 points.

I hadn't thought about hans or closed face helmets yet, or anything beyond fire suit. And fire suit seemed extreme, but potentially necessary. Add a coolsuit in there....

 

This snowballs quickly. However, a lot of the personal gear translates to other vehicles. 

I love this miata. Dad and i built it together, and it HAS to remain streetable for me to want to own it. 

I'm with Toyman on this. Decide how serious you want to be and go from there. Remember the EVO going off the side of Pikes Peak years ago, a well built FIA cage is what kept them alive. 

But when you go that route, then you need a trailer, tow vehicle, etc. It's a tough choice. So use the winter to think about what you want vs what the time/money expenditure it will take to get there. 

I decided years ago, I didn't want an HPDE/TT car anymore because of the time/money commitment. I still struggle with a "fun car I can track and take to work"

And honestly, it really wasn't money, it was time. I got tired of spending my evenings and weekends in the garage. Some enjoy it, it burned me out.

A little over 20 years ago I was daily driving a Showroom Stock C Miata. Being shorter my head cleared the side bar at the top of the cage so it wasn't as dangerous as some cars cage layout.

I'm all about safety but I'm also OK with a dual duty car with a lower level of gear provided one tailors their approach to the level of gear.  That means driving 90% in places that have less running off as well as giving other cars more room. 

For me the point of HPDEs is  having fun and driving faster than you can on the road. It's possible to do that and leave margin for error. I bring my vintage race car to the track days I instruct at. I drive student's street cars much differently than I do my fully prepared race car and not just becuase it isn't my car. 

I agree with alot of the above. My personal preference, and what I did when faced with the same questions, was dedicated track car and dedicated street car. I know that is not feasible for everyone as it add another car to maintain/park plus truck trailer etc.

If you are trying to dual purpose a miata go with roll bar, seats, harness, HNR, closed face helmet. I wouldn't bother with a fire suit unless you have a cage or door bars that make it harder to get out of than a regular car. Try to keep the stock seat belts for street use if you can.

Side note on HNR (I'm an engineer, but not a HNR expert. This is from research I did a few years ago, YMMV): Hans were designed for full race cars and assume you have a halo seat and doesn't integrate side support. I wouldn't put a halo seat in a street car for visibility reasons. I went with the Necksgen as it adds side support for use in cars without halos 

My concern with that picture is that you really, really need to get a lot lower in the car. I don't think I'd be comfortable running a fast convertible on a track unless the combination of race seat and higher roll bar got me under a broomstick as triangulated to hood of the car near the front bumper.

I will seal up this thread, i think.

Plan is for a hard dog hardcore, fixed seats mounted low, closed face helmet amd nevk restraint. This will allow me to comfortably play woth this car while i get the fully caged roller i shook hands on today done over the next few years. 

I went down this road of trying to eat my cake and have it too.  Fixed-back buckets mounted as low as possible with the hard dog hard core is a great place to start, but some words of experience there.  The transmission tunnel gets in the way of the right front corner of a racing seat, so when I did this I had to notch out the transmission tunnel.  There's a number of different pre-stamped panels on the market.  However, that requires removing the front OEM seat mounting points.  I took the car to a fabricator and had them extend the OEM seat mount reinforcement so I could keep the stock seat mounting points and go back and forth between race seats and the stock seats.  If you go this route, invest in a good spot weld drill bit.  I can probably dig up pictures if you'd like.

I always felt reasonably safe on track with the buckets mounted low and 6 points, but I never feel entirely comfortable on the street with the roll bar right behind my head, even with double density foam there. 

steronz said:

I went down this road of trying to eat my cake and have it too.  Fixed-back buckets mounted as low as possible with the hard dog hard core is a great place to start, but some words of experience there.  The transmission tunnel gets in the way of the right front corner of a racing seat, so when I did this I had to notch out the transmission tunnel. 

This is going to depend on the seat you pick, there aren't many that fit a Miata without cutting stuff like that.  FWIW, the Recaro Pole Positions in mine did not require notching the tunnel.

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

This is going to depend on the seat you pick, there aren't many that fit a Miata without cutting stuff like that.  FWIW, the Recaro Pole Positions in mine did not require notching the tunnel.

The seat you pick depends on how much you like donuts and cheeseburgers. Any seat that will fit without requiring a tunnel notch will require you to be built like an F1 driver.