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Rodan
Rodan Dork
1/2/20 3:47 p.m.

Wow!  Like it.  yes

Lots of Vulcan and LFA going on there.

Kreb makes a good point about value and sophistication.  New cars are so damn good, it's pretty hard to improve, and this doesn't have the rosy glow of nostalgia surrounding it.

Edit:  80" wide??  wow...  that's a FOOT wider than an NA Miata, and 5" wider than our ZL1.

mfennell
mfennell Reader
1/2/20 3:52 p.m.
ultraclyde said:

You have to remember that they are selling kits to someone else who will then have to install the drivetrain. I was just reading up on their Type 65 Coupe (because I watched Shelby American on Netflix last night) and the FFR guys mentioned that the majority of the calls to their tech hotline were about their mid-engine car even though they were only a small number of the sales. 

A lot of their GTM support problems are self inflicted.  Stolen from the ffrcars forum:

The car was 3 times harder than building the Vans RV7 airplane which had a book written by an expert and blueprints that provided straight forward information. You didn't have to guess what angle the dudes head was when he took the picture or frame of mind when he wrote the instruction. Guesswork on the GTM is wide open and wastes tremendous time. Every corner, every piece doesn't fall together as it should. Not even close in many cases. Its like a jigsaw puzzle someone chewed up and spit out on the garage floor. So you have to hand shape all the pieces to actually fit. Sometimes you just make them yourself. Finishing it is like leaving prison on parole. You're older, broke, lost a few freinds and your wife forgot who you were.

Kreb
Kreb GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/2/20 4:28 p.m.

In reply to mfennell :

Factory Five may be the best moderately-priced kit car producer in the states, but that doesn't mean that they are perfect.

Years ago I built a Brunton Stalker V6 (#24). Drove from California to pick up the kit. When Dennis handed me the documentation I thought "Is this some kind of a joke?" If it hadn't been for the internet and one particular guy's build log, it'd have been a nightmare for a novice builder like me. And that's a car that's probably 20 percent as complicated as the GTM.

The0retical
The0retical UberDork
1/2/20 4:28 p.m.

In reply to Kreb :

Modern cars, even over just the last 10 years, are amazing things. There's probably little reason to build something like this when you can have a Corvette or a modern Viper for less.

You build something like this for the same reason you build an airplane, only kit cars just aren't worth more when you're finished.

Kreb
Kreb GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/2/20 4:42 p.m.

In reply to The0retical :

I get it. I really do. But the landscape has changed. in recent years. High performance is ubiquitous. It used to be a good kit car would get you a great build experience, a really cool car, and the ability to blow away almost everyone on the road at a relatively cheap price. In a world where Tesla sedans set speed records, and vans can be had with sub 6 second 0-60 times, you'd best be happy with the first two of the virtues that I listed, because the third isn't a slam-dunk.

einy
einy HalfDork
1/2/20 5:05 p.m.
OldGray320i said:

I'm still looking for them to produce the Miata based early 60s sports racing car, with a space frame, one piece body, and sub 1500lb weight. 

 While I dig this new effort from FFR, I strongly agree with OG320i’s sentiments above !

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe UberDork
1/2/20 5:24 p.m.
mfennell said:
ultraclyde said:

You have to remember that they are selling kits to someone else who will then have to install the drivetrain. I was just reading up on their Type 65 Coupe (because I watched Shelby American on Netflix last night) and the FFR guys mentioned that the majority of the calls to their tech hotline were about their mid-engine car even though they were only a small number of the sales. 

A lot of their GTM support problems are self inflicted.  Stolen from the ffrcars forum:

The car was 3 times harder than building the Vans RV7 airplane which had a book written by an expert and blueprints that provided straight forward information. You didn't have to guess what angle the dudes head was when he took the picture or frame of mind when he wrote the instruction. Guesswork on the GTM is wide open and wastes tremendous time. Every corner, every piece doesn't fall together as it should. Not even close in many cases. Its like a jigsaw puzzle someone chewed up and spit out on the garage floor. So you have to hand shape all the pieces to actually fit. Sometimes you just make them yourself. Finishing it is like leaving prison on parole. You're older, broke, lost a few freinds and your wife forgot who you were.

In their defense the FFR 65 cobra goes together like a giant lego set as it has many more eyes on it over the years. The fact that there were ever even able to sell the GTM at the pricepoint they did means that things like this slip though the cracks. 

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/2/20 6:30 p.m.

Just not feeling it.  There is something wrong with the front of the car both in profile and looking from the front. 

I have never been a fan of the angularity of cars these days.  What ever happened to smooth flowing designs?  These looking like some one took a bunch of polygons and slammed them together and then ran the resulting mess through a digital wind tunnel with a flow/form altering AI algorithms.

 

EDIT:  What is with the smooth top and all the angles from about the top of the tires down.  It is like they took the top of a Ferrari 812  and slammed it on the bottom of a Lamborghini Aventador SV Coupe

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/2/20 6:35 p.m.

As for the front this is what I think of when I look a it.

 

jmc14
jmc14 Reader
1/2/20 7:33 p.m.
dean1484 said:

As for the front this is what I think of when I look a it.

 

I think that's what you said about my car! smiley

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
1/2/20 7:47 p.m.

Looks incredible imo.

Gearheadotaku
Gearheadotaku GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
1/2/20 9:52 p.m.

I'll take one in black, no rear wing please.

..and now Rocket Loans offers financing... dangerous....

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
1/2/20 10:00 p.m.
Kreb said:

I'd be interested in talking candidly with the FF marketing and product development people. I think that one of the problems that the 818 had was that you basically ended up with a louder, less comfortable Boxter. Quicker, yes, but at what cost?

So when it comes to this puppy, how is it superior to a Vette? And will the performance and style be worth the crudeness?

I really don't mean to be a naysayer. I'm a kit car/custom build nut.  But the emphasis is on the word nut. What are the sane people going to think? 

Something like this rarely makes financial sense. You could say almost the exact same thing about an LS swapped Miata, but they still get built despite costing more than a C5 Z06 - or C6 z06 if done "right." Sane people don't build these.

Petrolburner
Petrolburner Dork
1/2/20 10:20 p.m.

Looks awesome.  What's the deal on the LS based V 12?

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/2/20 10:29 p.m.
jmc14 said:
dean1484 said:

As for the front this is what I think of when I look a it.

 

I think that's what you said about my car! smiley

That car flows really nicely and the intake in the front is low and not completely dominating the front of the car.  I like it.

NOT A TA
NOT A TA SuperDork
1/2/20 10:59 p.m.
mfennell said:
ultraclyde said:

You have to remember that they are selling kits to someone else who will then have to install the drivetrain. I was just reading up on their Type 65 Coupe (because I watched Shelby American on Netflix last night) and the FFR guys mentioned that the majority of the calls to their tech hotline were about their mid-engine car even though they were only a small number of the sales. 

A lot of their GTM support problems are self inflicted.  Stolen from the ffrcars forum:

The car was 3 times harder than building the Vans RV7 airplane which had a book written by an expert and blueprints that provided straight forward information. You didn't have to guess what angle the dudes head was when he took the picture or frame of mind when he wrote the instruction. Guesswork on the GTM is wide open and wastes tremendous time. Every corner, every piece doesn't fall together as it should. Not even close in many cases. Its like a jigsaw puzzle someone chewed up and spit out on the garage floor. So you have to hand shape all the pieces to actually fit. Sometimes you just make them yourself. Finishing it is like leaving prison on parole. You're older, broke, lost a few freinds and your wife forgot who you were.

I can verify the GTM is a royal pain to build. Nothing fits, everything has to be modified, the bodies aren't symmetrical, wheel arches are wrong, etc. etc. etc.

NOT A TA
NOT A TA SuperDork
1/2/20 11:00 p.m.
Petrolburner said:

Looks awesome.  What's the deal on the LS based V 12?

IIRC I saw something a year or so back that a company in Australia was working on it and had one running.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
1/3/20 3:09 a.m.
wearymicrobe said:
mfennell said:
ultraclyde said:

You have to remember that they are selling kits to someone else who will then have to install the drivetrain. I was just reading up on their Type 65 Coupe (because I watched Shelby American on Netflix last night) and the FFR guys mentioned that the majority of the calls to their tech hotline were about their mid-engine car even though they were only a small number of the sales. 

A lot of their GTM support problems are self inflicted.  Stolen from the ffrcars forum:

The car was 3 times harder than building the Vans RV7 airplane which had a book written by an expert and blueprints that provided straight forward information. You didn't have to guess what angle the dudes head was when he took the picture or frame of mind when he wrote the instruction. Guesswork on the GTM is wide open and wastes tremendous time. Every corner, every piece doesn't fall together as it should. Not even close in many cases. Its like a jigsaw puzzle someone chewed up and spit out on the garage floor. So you have to hand shape all the pieces to actually fit. Sometimes you just make them yourself. Finishing it is like leaving prison on parole. You're older, broke, lost a few freinds and your wife forgot who you were.

In their defense the FFR 65 cobra goes together like a giant lego set as it has many more eyes on it over the years. The fact that there were ever even able to sell the GTM at the pricepoint they did means that things like this slip though the cracks. 

That's not entirely fair. An RV, in kit form damn near falls together for an airplane. Had he said that he'd rather build a Prescott Pusher, than a GTM, then that would be saying something, because that kit plane was a total pile.

ultraclyde
ultraclyde PowerDork
1/3/20 5:47 a.m.

Interesting that the quality of design and documentation varies that much between two projects from the same company.

I dont think anyone buys a kit to build a car that is more refined than a production car. These days even faster is a stretch. And when you get into supercars...well, isn't that the two things you buy a supercar for? I have never seen the business case for the GTM really. 

Now buying one to be different, or for nostalgia, or for the build...that something else entirely.

Sane people dont buy kit cars. Sane people buy Camrys.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
1/3/20 7:45 a.m.

If I build it, it has to be MY wet dream and I want  to have the only one. 

The FFr f9r effort is a cool enough car but I did not dream any of it up and I don't have a vision for how I would make it my own. Compounding this, I imagine that a lot of the ownership experience is going to be on the forums with other builders or at gatherings where everyone brings the same car to talk about the same build adventure.

 

Pete

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
1/3/20 7:53 a.m.
OldGray320i said:

It looks good, but I'm just not feeling it. 

Too much like the last Vette, I think. 

I'm still looking for them to produce the Miata based early 60s sports racing car, with a space frame, one piece body, and sub 1500lb weight. 

 

I agree.  It looks like a modernized Type 65 Coupe (Cobra Daytona) to me.  And I'd rather have the Daytona.  Or a GT40 replica.  

MEV/Exomotive did produce a Miata based 60's sports racer car - the DBR1, but it appears it didn't sell well (or Aston Martin sent them a C&D order) as it went out of production in early 2018.  A-M DBR replica  The proportions are a little off compared to the original (I've seen one of them at the Simeone collection), but it still looks ok to me.

Harvey
Harvey GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/3/20 8:13 a.m.
dculberson said:

2400lbs with the kinds of drivetrains they're talking about would be absolutely bonkers.

You say?

My Uncle just had one of these built with a big block V8.

https://www.superformance.com/factory-models/mkiii-r

2400lbs

700hp 

730lb/ft

Kreb
Kreb GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/3/20 8:49 a.m.
Ian F said:

 

MEV/Exomotive did produce a Miata based 60's sports racer car - the DBR1, but it appears it didn't sell well (or Aston Martin sent them a C&D order) as it went out of production in early 2018.  A-M DBR replica  The proportions are a little off compared to the original (I've seen one of them at the Simeone collection), but it still looks ok to me.

They didn't really market it. It was kind of like "Oh, yeah, and we're thinking of bringing this to market". In fact, I didn't know that they'd ever really offered it.  

dculberson
dculberson MegaDork
1/3/20 8:57 a.m.

In reply to Harvey :

And I bet it's bonkers!! Cool car. What engine?

 

OldGray320i
OldGray320i Dork
1/3/20 10:45 a.m.
Kreb said:
Ian F said:

 

MEV/Exomotive did produce a Miata based 60's sports racer car - the DBR1, but it appears it didn't sell well (or Aston Martin sent them a C&D order) as it went out of production in early 2018.  A-M DBR replica  The proportions are a little off compared to the original (I've seen one of them at the Simeone collection), but it still looks ok to me.

They didn't really market it. It was kind of like "Oh, yeah, and we're thinking of bringing this to market". In fact, I didn't know that they'd ever really offered it.  

To me, if they did such a thing, it would need to be a homage to the great cars, in the spirit of. 

That Aston kit looked pretty good, but the proportions were off a little.

The 818 was a nod to some (modern) Lotus, which doesn't make sense to me, but that was the word I got. 

Also, Miatas look pretty good/classic anyway, and are relatively cheap to spif up, so the donor might be as much competition as a donor. 

But, the right look, the right weight, and the right price, I think it would easily sell as well as the 818. 

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