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Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/14/21 12:05 p.m.

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

The start of this race, and many others this year, is a clear example of why rules shouldn't really be cast in stone.  Yes, Lewis ran wide, and should have been penalized.  Except there is an agreement that running wide on the first lap is kinda OK, because carnage may result otherwise.  Also, do you punish Lewis (or any driver) for avoiding a crash? You then put too much power in the hands of the stewards, and I really hate competitions run by lawyers.  It's why I really hope baseball doesn't go to computerized strike zones.  The corner of the strike zone is where the fun comes from.

Anyway, making Lewis give the place back would result in a dive bomb being an acceptable passing technique, and that won't end well.

I'm willing to give Masi another year.  He is learning.  Fire his ass, and are we going to put the reanimated corpse of Charley Whiting in the box?  Do we get another new guy with a bunch more things to learned? Let him stew over the year, sit down with him in a monthnor two and discuss some of his controversial decisions without pitchforks and burning torches, and he can decide which things he would change in retrospect.  

Edit:  The first lap situation kinda faded as we watched the race and figured out that even if Lewis gave the place back, he was the faster car and was always going to lead eventually.

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
12/14/21 12:08 p.m.

The way I see it, Red Bull set up the car to do what Max did - dive the inside and force a pass.  Lewis knew it was coming and couldn't really do anything about it. Twice.  

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
12/14/21 1:50 p.m.

Lewis could have easily stayed side by side with Max through the turn rather than cutting the entire corner off the next turn and gaining 8-10 car lengths, there was plenty of room.  He also could have backed out and tried to go over/under like Perez did to him about 20 laps later.  Cutting the corner was a clear rules violation.   Also, we keep saying Lewis was the faster driver that day, but if Max got ahead of him on red tires on Lap 1 and got 20 or so laps out of them, the entire remainder of the race may have turned differently.  But as I said above, I think the stewards actually got it right by not following the strict letter of the rule and using some discretion.  I just think we have to accept that discretion is and always will be a part of motorsports.  Sometimes it works in your driver's favor.  Other times it doesn't.

As a complete aside- the biggest surprise of the day for me was how little of an advantage the red tires were over the yellows or whites.  We all assumed Max would make a clean break away from Lewis the start but that was not the case, and there wasn't a big difference in reaction time.  I was surprised that they sent Max back out on reds at the end, it seems like yellows would have been a better choice for that track.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/14/21 1:58 p.m.

I disagree that Lewis could have stayed side by side, there was no space left. I'd have to look at that corner, but a lot of the F1 corners are set up so that you have to go waaay off track if you go off at all to avoid big sausage curbs.

I was really surprised by the start, I did not expect that at all. 

fusion66
fusion66 Reader
12/14/21 2:22 p.m.

I can't tell if big curbs were in play or not. You can see it twice from 0:45 in the video to 1:26

Race Highlights | 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - YouTube

steronz
steronz Reader
12/14/21 2:40 p.m.

I'm on record here as saying I'm probably one of the only fans who likes the run-off areas, as it prevents whoever you're rooting for from being beached by some backmarker who outbrakes themselves (for example).  But man, the FIA's ever-changing rules do not make this easy.

Max's dive-bombs, or "lunges," don't seem kosher to me, but I was surprised that among the [former drivers] I've watched there's unanimous agreement that those sorts of moves are tough but fair.  I gather they're more common in the junior formulae where you don't get the massive speed differentials that you do in F1.  I don't like them because they require the person on the outside to back out of the apex or have an accident, and maybe that's just been beaten into my head from endurance racing that you just don't do that sort of thing.  "If you no longer go for a gap" and all that.  I just feel like, if Hamilton had turned in and they'd wrecked, Martin Brundle would be talking about driving into a disappearing gap or some such.  I dunno.

Hamilton shooting off like a rocket through the run-off also doesn't seem kosher to me.  Reminds me of Rosberg in Canada 2016, or more recently Alonso testing the limits of the rules.  But they said he gave up the time gained so whatever.

Here's the part I'm really confused about -- 2 penalties in Austria for not leaving racing room on the outside.  Could there be a rule more selectively applied than this one?  Max did not leave Hamilton racing room, forcing Lewis into the runoff.  I get it, lap 1, let them race, but Max has done this again and again and again.  "Back out of the corner, go off track, or hit me." I hate that this is a part of F1.

Benswen
Benswen Reader
12/14/21 2:48 p.m.

F-Zero style electronic gravel traps.  If all four wheels go outside the track limit, you get bumped down to VSC speed until you rejoin.  It would be easy enough to disable it for lap one or two, or for tracks that have actual gravel traps.

This would also cut down on the Gran Turismo style divebombs, as the penalty for going off track would be serious enough that drivers would either risk contact or back out to avoid running off.  (Or at least make it more fair for other drivers who are less willing to play chicken than Max is.)

 

intrepid
intrepid Reader
12/14/21 3:31 p.m.

From my own experience, I don't think it is as easy to brake or change direction near the apex of a corner as some seem to think. When you're driving at the limit in a corner,  your options are somewhat limited. I'm actually amazed at Hamilton's abilities to consistently avoid having Max crash into him. 

And I am really not a fan of Max's banzai approach to racing in corners. It seems against the spirit of road racing, and it is not really satisfying to watch, unless you just want to see him bully all opponents. The best part of the  last race was watching Hamilton and Perez. They raced hard, but they gave each other just enough room to continue.  I think that showed real skill on the part of both of them, and that is what I really want to see in road racing.

-chris r.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/14/21 3:44 p.m.
intrepid said:

And I am really not a fan of Max's banzai approach to racing in corners. It seems against the spirit of road racing, and it is not really satisfying to watch, unless you just want to see him bully all opponents. The best part of the  last race was watching Hamilton and Perez. They raced hard, but they gave each other just enough room to continue.  I think that showed real skill on the part of both of them, and that is what I really want to see in road racing.

-chris r.

Hear hear. That's the sort of racing we all wanted to see all year from Max and Lewis.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/14/21 5:02 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
intrepid said:

And I am really not a fan of Max's banzai approach to racing in corners. It seems against the spirit of road racing, and it is not really satisfying to watch, unless you just want to see him bully all opponents. The best part of the  last race was watching Hamilton and Perez. They raced hard, but they gave each other just enough room to continue.  I think that showed real skill on the part of both of them, and that is what I really want to see in road racing.

-chris r.

Hear hear. That's the sort of racing we all wanted to see all year from Max and Lewis.

Speak for yourself. :)

That restart in Jeddah where Max basically forced Hammy and Ocon off the track or cause an accident is not the type of racing I want to see. But the FIA/Liberty Media apparently want this kind of stuff, so I won't beleaguer the point. 

It's over and done with now, I'm still salty about it. Hoping Merc and Hammy can come back and crush everyone next season.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/14/21 5:58 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Keith Tanner said:
intrepid said:

And I am really not a fan of Max's banzai approach to racing in corners. It seems against the spirit of road racing, and it is not really satisfying to watch, unless you just want to see him bully all opponents. The best part of the  last race was watching Hamilton and Perez. They raced hard, but they gave each other just enough room to continue.  I think that showed real skill on the part of both of them, and that is what I really want to see in road racing.

-chris r.

Hear hear. That's the sort of racing we all wanted to see all year from Max and Lewis.

Speak for yourself. :)

That restart in Jeddah where Max basically forced Hammy and Ocon off the track or cause an accident is not the type of racing I want to see. But the FIA/Liberty Media apparently want this kind of stuff, so I won't beleaguer the point. 

It's over and done with now, I'm still salty about it. Hoping Merc and Hammy can come back and crush everyone next season.

I think you agreed with the post above yours....

 

Basically, YES!  The way Hamilton and checo Raced was what I want to see from the 2 at the front!

SnowMongoose
SnowMongoose SuperDork
12/14/21 8:52 p.m.
Saron81 said:

In reply to ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) :

Lewis had no where to go though. He was ahead, and Max left him no room on track. We all knew that lunge was coming. He could've held his ground, and caused a collision, but if it took both of them out, Max would've won on the race wins tie breaker. This was the least risky move LH could've made IMO. Great real time damage limitation.  He went into the corner leading, was run off, and returned in the lead. That's how I see it anyways.

Lewis left the door open, was behind at the apex... and could have used his brakes to stay on track after Max got the pass done.
If Max had come in sideways and been unable to stay on track it would be one thing... but that's not what happened.  
Questionable no call, Lewis gained an advantage by leaving the track.  

759NRNG
759NRNG UberDork
12/14/21 11:03 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
intrepid said:

And I am really not a fan of Max's banzai approach to racing in corners. It seems against the spirit of road racing, and it is not really satisfying to watch, unless you just want to see him bully all opponents. The best part of the  last race was watching Hamilton and Perez. They raced hard, but they gave each other just enough room to continue.  I think that showed real skill on the part of both of them, and that is what I really want to see in road racing.

-chris r.

Hear hear. That's the sort of racing we all wanted to see all year from Max and Lewis.

yes, but let us remember that LH considered that 'dangerous' racing? 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/14/21 11:05 p.m.

In reply to 759NRNG :

One comment made in the heat of battle and broadcast at a different time by an editor who was trying to ramp up the drama. Ask him now.

intrepid
intrepid Reader
12/14/21 11:49 p.m.

Regarding the  first lap incident (turn 5, I think) involving Hamilton and Max. I think the issue probably was that, in the eyes of the stewards, Max hadn't "got the pass done". Max was alongside and slightly ahead of Hamilton, but I think he was still obliged to leave racing space for Hamilton, because the pass was not complete. Hamilton was in no  way obliged to put on his brakes, he had earned the right to space in that turn.

Regarding the "dangerous" comment in the Perez encounter. I can't say what Hamilton was implying, but I am not sure that it was what you might think. He may have just been noting that the risk in the encounter was greater for him than it was for Perez.

-chris r.

kevlarcorolla
kevlarcorolla Dork
12/15/21 12:41 a.m.

Seems in talking with my non racer f1 fan friends and F1 friends that actually pull a helmet on the view on how Max passes is directly related to if they race themselves or not.

 Non racers think he's wonderfull,actual racers not so much.

 

 I wanted to love Max and the aggressive style but I just can't get onboard with the block passes.

 Sailing WAY past the apex with the car turned maybe 10 degrees relative to the straight (compared to the approx 45 degrees at the apex if running the 90 degree corner alone)and nearly parking the car before trying to turn isn't racing.

 

 Max staying within the white lines for a change was great,too bad it was done at about half the speed the corner (and Lewis)were able to take it at.

 

Great driver and earned the right over the course of the season to be the champ,just feels pretty wrong still.

 

 I wonder if his insistence he's done nothing wrong while being penalized would ease a bit if he ever got away from RedBull?

 

 Here's to hoping young George is unwilling to avoid those collisions :)

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
12/15/21 9:58 a.m.
wvumtnbkr said:
z31maniac said:
Keith Tanner said:
intrepid said:

And I am really not a fan of Max's banzai approach to racing in corners. It seems against the spirit of road racing, and it is not really satisfying to watch, unless you just want to see him bully all opponents. The best part of the  last race was watching Hamilton and Perez. They raced hard, but they gave each other just enough room to continue.  I think that showed real skill on the part of both of them, and that is what I really want to see in road racing.

-chris r.

Hear hear. That's the sort of racing we all wanted to see all year from Max and Lewis.

Speak for yourself. :)

That restart in Jeddah where Max basically forced Hammy and Ocon off the track or cause an accident is not the type of racing I want to see. But the FIA/Liberty Media apparently want this kind of stuff, so I won't beleaguer the point. 

It's over and done with now, I'm still salty about it. Hoping Merc and Hammy can come back and crush everyone next season.

I think you agreed with the post above yours....

 

Basically, YES!  The way Hamilton and checo Raced was what I want to see from the 2 at the front!

Yeah, I agreed with intrepid, not Keith. :)

I don't like how Max continues to get a pass from the FIA for dirty driving. But notice I mentioned Jeddah, not Abu Dhabi. The kind of dive bombing Max was doing at Jeddah is the kind of stuff that has a group of drivers coming to you at a club track after the race is over. 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
12/15/21 6:53 p.m.

I will pile on, as I want to be part of getting this thread to 100 pages!
Lap 1, the attempted pass by Max was a good attempt but he left no room for Lewis to continue around the corner without crashing. It wasn’t a good idea for Lewis to cross over the big yellow curb. More importantly, Lewis turned hard right to avoid Max and then had to catch his car from a spin. That slide took him off track. And so he cut the corner. By turn 9 he had given any gap back and Max was right on him again. This has happened for years and the same result has resulted. If you let the car behind close back up then you don’t get a penalty.


Lewis had pace to win easy and so pitting during the VSC would have been the right call. I feel that lost him the race and WDC.


The race with Perez and Lewis was cool but I can imagine it was very tough as Perez would not just park his car on corner apex but also near the track out points. So extreme but not dangerous from outside the car.


Then the safety car came out and I actually assumed the race was over so I left the room for a minute. Any other race series would have ended behind the safety car. To me deviating from standard practice to let ALL lapped cars by as normal does imply an intent to manipulate the race.

I was prepared for Max to have pace and win the WDC. But for a never before seen direction of releasing some lapped cars plus bringing in the safety car just felt like a reality TV show not a race series. 

 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
12/15/21 6:56 p.m.

Oh forgot to add,

If it wasn't lap 1 Max should have received penalty for not allowing room at corner exit. 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
12/15/21 6:57 p.m.

Oh and YUKI!!!!

P4 and right on the gearbox of Sainz for a podium if only he had 1 more lap. 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
12/15/21 7:03 p.m.

And finally the inflammatory jest.

I think a lot of old guard F1 guys are finally happy they "predicted" Max to be a champion and this year figured they would get the media on board with the Let Max Win effort. Otherwise called the let them race nonsense. I noted that even on the official F1 podcast one of the hosts tried to speak truth that Max was starting to go too far. But by the next podcast she would just not speak on the topic and the head of the podcast seemed oddly unconcerned about what supporting a culture of dive bombing and turning in on anyone alongside you will do long term to F1. 

If you have a driver that doesn't follow the rules vs another that does. Saying the rules don't matter this year for one of them, as it was only applied to Max and Lewis, definitely biases the series towards one of the drivers. 

Hope that lights a big enough fire for 5 more pages.....

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
12/15/21 7:11 p.m.
intrepid said:

........... I'm actually amazed at Hamilton's abilities to consistently avoid having Max crash into him. 

-chris r.

Yes seeing how much wheel work he had to do to keep the car from spinning was probably the key for the stewards. By the time he gathered up the car he was way off track. 

Some say he left the door open but I took it as Lewis realizing Max will dive around the outside and hit him in a repeat of Monza so he made an intelligent tactic work by giving himself room to escape. 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
12/15/21 7:16 p.m.

It was nice to see Max show some true joy. 

So was this the capper on Horner's career? Time to move on?

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
12/15/21 7:23 p.m.
stylngle2003 said:

Also, I can't believe he didn't try to defend the inside at T5 on the last lap.  Sure, Max would have likely gotten him around the outside, but at least make him work for it a little.  

The scenario was, IF Lewis is crashed out trying to make a strong defense and IF Bottas falls low enough, RBR win the constructors championship with a 1-2 finish. 

Lewis wasn't just racing for WDC he was racing for both championships.

Note: all above is wrong. I forgot Perez retired due to engine issues. 

NY Nick
NY Nick GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
12/15/21 7:26 p.m.

I am already annoyed with all the changing of the guard Max is the new king writing going on. The bad taste in my mouth about the last race isn't helping that but I am certain it's going to piss  me off every time I see car #1 pull in the track next year. 

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