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BrewCity20
BrewCity20 Reader
5/24/22 1:21 p.m.

In reply to trigun7469 :

RIC leaving RB when he did (for Renault no less) has to be one of the all-time bad strategic decisions. Like you said, who knows what woudl have happened if he sticks around. A Ferrari drive a few years down the road? Fighting Max for a WDC? Instead he is second fiddle at McLaren with grumblings already started.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/24/22 1:35 p.m.

I think it was a good decision, he was just going to get Webered at Red Bull. It's a very toxic place to be if your name isn't Max. He's just made poor choices since, and just doesn't seem to be able to really deliver when it counts. I like the guy, but he's not quite at the pointy end of the grid.

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
5/24/22 7:01 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I think it was a good decision, he was just going to get Webered at Red Bull. It's a very toxic place to be if your name isn't Max. He's just made poor choices since, and just doesn't seem to be able to really deliver when it counts. I like the guy, but he's not quite at the pointy end of the grid.

Yes, he had to make a choice between being always considered a number 2 driver. To having a chance. Going to Renault was a chance. It didn't work out. So on to McLaren; which I thought was a good choice myself given their team structure and performance. But nope, that hasn't worked out either.

Staying at RB = never having a chance ever. 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
5/24/22 7:06 p.m.
759NRNG said:

Thinking out loud.....what venue in the upcoming schedule will present itself as the track where Checko will prevail regardless.....tol???   

Reply thinking out loud....I have a hard time figuring out how much of Perez pace issues being a result of choosing a bad strategy himself vs being shifted to strategies that most help Max by the team. His race in Spain seemed to be dictated by helping Max if possible and the events didn't even allow him to do much helping g other than letting Max pass him twice. 

BrewCity20
BrewCity20 Reader
5/24/22 11:05 p.m.
Advan046 said:
Keith Tanner said:

I think it was a good decision, he was just going to get Webered at Red Bull. It's a very toxic place to be if your name isn't Max. He's just made poor choices since, and just doesn't seem to be able to really deliver when it counts. I like the guy, but he's not quite at the pointy end of the grid.

Yes, he had to make a choice between being always considered a number 2 driver. To having a chance. Going to Renault was a chance. It didn't work out. So on to McLaren; which I thought was a good choice myself given their team structure and performance. But nope, that hasn't worked out either.

Staying at RB = never having a chance ever. 

I certainly see your point but is that really true? I mean, if we compare the situations do you really think he had a better chance of turning a very average Renault into a world championship drive....versus Max having a couple of bad races/DNFs/Crashes and him taking advantage? 

I agree RIC would never be #1 at RB, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a better chance at the ultimate prize than he would have at Renault. I guess I'm saying I'd rather have the fastest car and deal with the team - than have a mid-field car as the undisputed #1.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/25/22 9:22 a.m.
BrewCity20 said:
 

I certainly see your point but is that really true? I mean, if we compare the situations do you really think he had a better chance of turning a very average Renault into a world championship drive....versus Max having a couple of bad races/DNFs/Crashes and him taking advantage? 

I agree RIC would never be #1 at RB, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a better chance at the ultimate prize than he would have at Renault. I guess I'm saying I'd rather have the fastest car and deal with the team - than have a mid-field car as the undisputed #1.

Had it not been for the massive amount of cycling of the #2 driver at RBR for the last few years, you might have a point.  But it sure seems that it's one of the worst and least secure seats in all of F1.  There's so much pressure on that seat that drivers just cave, and before you know it, they are replaced.  One more thing to consider, when was the last time the #2 driver at RBR won a race, let alone sniffed the championship?

It's not impossible that Ricciardo would have had enough issues that he would not have been able to return after one more season with Max.

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
5/25/22 9:44 a.m.
alfadriver said:
One more thing to consider, when was the last time the #2 driver at RBR won a race, let alone sniffed the championship?

Checho did win a race last year. Then again, so did Danny...

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) Dork
5/25/22 9:54 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

Max RB teammates records, Checo won at Azerbaijan in 2021.  Max went out with that tire failure and Lewis had a brain fart..  Ricciardo won at Monaco in 2018, Azerbaijan in 2017 and Malaysia in 2016.  

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/25/22 11:47 a.m.

I'll rephrase it, then- when was the last time an RBR #2 won with Max still running?  

Sounds like it was 4 years ago.

 

BrewCity20
BrewCity20 Reader
5/25/22 12:19 p.m.
alfadriver said:
BrewCity20 said:
 

I certainly see your point but is that really true? I mean, if we compare the situations do you really think he had a better chance of turning a very average Renault into a world championship drive....versus Max having a couple of bad races/DNFs/Crashes and him taking advantage? 

I agree RIC would never be #1 at RB, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a better chance at the ultimate prize than he would have at Renault. I guess I'm saying I'd rather have the fastest car and deal with the team - than have a mid-field car as the undisputed #1.

Had it not been for the massive amount of cycling of the #2 driver at RBR for the last few years, you might have a point.  But it sure seems that it's one of the worst and least secure seats in all of F1.  There's so much pressure on that seat that drivers just cave, and before you know it, they are replaced.  One more thing to consider, when was the last time the #2 driver at RBR won a race, let alone sniffed the championship?

It's not impossible that Ricciardo would have had enough issues that he would not have been able to return after one more season with Max.

Very true, but I think you can attribute a lot of that to the fact RB was completely caught off guard when RIC left and they were just scrambling to fill the spot by moving up two drivers that otherwise would not have been thrust into that position so early in their careers (thus the poor performances). Hell, Albon was slated to be in F2 in 2020 and then suddenly found himself in the second fastest car on the grid. Clearly they were just trying to plug the gap. Now that they have Checo the position seems much more stable and likely will be for the foreseeable future. Certainly had RIC stayed there is no reason to think it wouldn't have been rock solid this whole time.

Also, to counter your point with an analogous example - What about Bottas? Do you think he has a better chance at winning the championship this year in the Alfa as the clear #1 in the fastest mid-field car than he did the last few years as the #2 to Hamilton in the fastest overall car? Of course not. He was a few Hamilton DNFs or lucky safety cars away from the championship. It never happened I'll grant you that, but it certainly was more likely than it is now. Each time he won in Australia everybody hoped it could possibly be the year he pushes Hamilton for the crown.

And to your second point - RIC and Max both won 2 races in 2018 so not sure that is a good arguing point. Plus Checo did win in Azerbijan in 2021 while Bottas didn't win any races that year. 2021 is also a bad example because by Spain it was clear the WDC was going to be between HAM and Max and both teams were doing absolutely everything they could to to get every point for those two drivers - as they should have been. As for 2019, anybody not in a Merc basically didn't stand a chance that year so I don't think it is anything sinister that a struggling (and underperforming) Gasly and rookie Albon couldn't get a win.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/25/22 1:55 p.m.

In reply to BrewCity20 :

Ricciardo was the last #2 to win, and I don't see them being caught out- they had plenty of drivers in the plan.  I don't see RBR giving their #2's a chance to really win.  

Bottas won some races while Mercedes, straight up, against Hamilton.  

And lets not equate Bottas with Ricciardo- one left their team, the other was not re-signed.  Not really close to the same thing.  

Ric could see the writing on the wall with the more and more blatant favoritism towards Verstappen, and left.  And seeing how the subsequent #2's have been treated, IMHO it's a great move.  When he moved to Renault, they were on the rise, as was McLaren when he moved.  So some luck played into the bad results.

Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter)
Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
5/25/22 2:57 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

I'll plus one all of that.

06HHR (Forum Supporter)
06HHR (Forum Supporter) Dork
5/25/22 3:11 p.m.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson (Forum Supporter) and alfadriver :

So, having established that Checo will never be allowed to fight for wins and the Drivers Championship while Max is around, how long do you see him at RB?  It's easily the best car he's had since entering F1, does he give that up because he won't be allowed to fight for the title?  

He's the strongest teammate that Max has ever had, because he knows how to get the most out of a suboptimal car.  Something that Dany never had to deal with until he left RB.  And he's a veteran driver, so Max can't push him around like he did Gasly and Albon.  What does the hive think?

 

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/25/22 4:15 p.m.

In reply to 06HHR (Forum Supporter) :

IMHO, until Checo wins a race w/ Max still running, Danny Ric was a stronger team mate.  Ricciardo has 4 wins against Max, in an era when the Red Bull was an also ran to Mercedes.

But Checo will last as long as they keep him, as I see it.  Lest we forget, RBR picked him off of the no-drive for 2021 list after Lawerence fired him.  So his next step was looking to be exiting F1- which could still be the next step.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/25/22 4:17 p.m.

I suspect Checo will be happy to dice it out with the best of the field and pick up some wins and poles. Can't do that in a lesser car. 

It will be interesting to see if he pushes back against team orders, but if he does it'll be in a way that makes them look foolish and not outright disobedience. 

Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter)
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
5/25/22 4:46 p.m.
alfadriver said:

In reply to 06HHR (Forum Supporter) :

IMHO, until Checo wins a race w/ Max still running, Danny Ric was a stronger team mate.  Ricciardo has 4 wins against Max, in an era when the Red Bull was an also ran to Mercedes.

I don't disagree, but I will point out that the Max of the first few years was not the complete driver he is now. He always had speed, but he also had to do a lot of growing up. So he was probably easier to beat in the years when Danny was there.

Then again, Vettel won 4 straight WDCs with RBR, then Danny showed up in 2014 after Webber retired and, quite frankly, kicked Vettel's ass.

There's so much that goes into what makes one driver "better" than another at a given time. Their mental state, their relationship with the team and teammate, the peculiarities of the car, and on and on. 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
5/25/22 5:09 p.m.

In reply to BrewCity20 :

I agree to a degree about equating Bottas' situation to Ricciardo's. I felt after 2018(?maybe) Bottas should have been given a two year contract. Not the one year again. He has admitted that it created an unworkable situation for him to perform at his best. So the best choice for him was to seek a longer term contract with anyone else. 

Still I think the treatment by the team of Bottas regarding race weekend strategy and support was very different than the "#2 screw you(unless #1 dnfs)" mentality of Redbull on a weekend. 

I figure many people think it is meritocracy but I think that is a false belief. If a team designs a car focused for you and their strategy is only for your points haul, then you will always have an easy time looking better than your teammate. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/25/22 6:02 p.m.

Bottas was very rarely asked to sacrifice himself for his teammate. There were times when he had to play a support role, but usually only when he was well out of contention for a win. Bottas just couldn't quite level up to Lewis on race day, usually due to tire management. 2021, Max got strong and Lewis responded and the two of them just left the entire field in their dust.

The RB #2 seat just never seems to perform, other than 2014 Danny. I think he figured out the complex hybrid cars faster than Vettel did. 

759NRNG
759NRNG UberDork
5/25/22 6:39 p.m.

"It will be interesting to see if he pushes back against team orders, but if he does it'll be in a way that makes them look foolish and not outright disobedience.   

This scenario described right here is what I would thoroughly enjoy witnessing ......hopefully this season......and soon

BrewCity20
BrewCity20 Reader
5/25/22 11:15 p.m.
alfadriver said:

In reply to BrewCity20 :

Ricciardo was the last #2 to win, and I don't see them being caught out- they had plenty of drivers in the plan.  I don't see RBR giving their #2's a chance to really win.  

Bottas won some races while Mercedes, straight up, against Hamilton.  

And lets not equate Bottas with Ricciardo- one left their team, the other was not re-signed.  Not really close to the same thing.  

Ric could see the writing on the wall with the more and more blatant favoritism towards Verstappen, and left.  And seeing how the subsequent #2's have been treated, IMHO it's a great move.  When he moved to Renault, they were on the rise, as was McLaren when he moved.  So some luck played into the bad results.

So a few points,

I agree that RBR is clearly more biased against their #2 than basically anybody else and have been increasingly so since RIC left. That said, I'm not sure that would be the case if RIC was still around as he was always seen as an elite/top-tier driver whereas Albon/Gasly/Checo are not. 2018 is an excellent example of this, Ric and Max each had 2 wins (would have been 3-1 in RIC's favor if he doesn't DNF in Mexico). I certainly see your point though seeing how this year is going with Checo - I guess I just don't believe RIC would garner the same treatment given his higher prestige. Checo was brought in to be a #2, RIC was brought up through the system to win championships. 

For a point of clarification, I didn't mean to reference Bottas to compare how he left with how RIC left (I agree the situations are completely different) but rather as an example of the "chances" a driver has to win a WDC depending on whether they are the #2 in a top team versus a #1 in a mid-tier team. You had originally argued that RIC made the correct choice because he had little to no chance at a WDC at RBR as a #2 and at least some chance as a #1 at Renault. I simply believe the opposite. I think any driver of a mid-field team has effectively 0% chance at winning a WDC whereas a #2 at one of the top teams at least is in a position to outdrive his partner and make a run at the crown.

This is what I feel RIC gave up when he left. He had already proven he could beat Max in the same car (and a car that seemed to match well with his "latest of the late brakers" style). You give RIC a season like this year where Max DNF's 2 of the first 3 races and suddenly RIC could be in the drivers seat for a WDC. Instead he is at his second team in four years, has one win over the past three seasons, and Zak Brown is commenting in the news how he is not performing as well as they had hoped. To me that is worlds worse than being a top 4 driver every year and being a few DNFs/bad Max Races away from making a run at the crown.

BrewCity20
BrewCity20 Reader
5/25/22 11:25 p.m.
Advan046 said:

In reply to BrewCity20 :

I agree to a degree about equating Bottas' situation to Ricciardo's. I felt after 2018(?maybe) Bottas should have been given a two year contract. Not the one year again. He has admitted that it created an unworkable situation for him to perform at his best. So the best choice for him was to seek a longer term contract with anyone else. 

Still I think the treatment by the team of Bottas regarding race weekend strategy and support was very different than the "#2 screw you(unless #1 dnfs)" mentality of Redbull on a weekend. 

I figure many people think it is meritocracy but I think that is a false belief. If a team designs a car focused for you and their strategy is only for your points haul, then you will always have an easy time looking better than your teammate. 

Yeah, I was using Bottas to try to make a different point but I clearly botched that as nobody seemed to understand it that way. On a side note I do feel for Bottas getting jobbed with those 1 year contracts every year when he was basically a lab-grown perfect wing-man for Hamilton.

Since I'm the resident RB fanboy I will also stand up a bit for Horner here. I agree RB is been bad this year with Checo (Spain being particularly bad - especially how early it is in the season) but I think it is unfair to judge on 2021. Both Merc and RB were in full-on support mode all year doing whatever they could to support Hamilton and Max respectively. This year is a bit different so RB will have to show their true colors (which so far isn't so good).

Totally agree on your third point. Having a car catered to your style certainly can make you look pretty damn fast relative to a teammate when it doesn't fit them so well.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
5/26/22 8:03 a.m.

With regard to the drivers moving around, I am intrigued by how a car may not match a driver.  The most obvious is Seb, who went from a four year dominance to, well, not.  The shift to the hybrid turbo car caught him out  and he still hasn't recovered.  He should have won the wdc with Ferrari a few years back.  Couldn't keep from the unforced errors.

Danny Ric, it seems, likes the same car as Max, but does not approve of Lando's style.

Checo has adapted quite well to the Max car.  I wonder if it's because he's never been the fastest guy, in less than super cars, and has either a natural or developed ability to adapt to whatever he's been given?

As to the team orders, yes.  If you hire on as a team mate to Max, Lewis, Michael, Ayrton, Fangio...  You are going to move over for the guy who has proven himself.  The only solution is to become so fast that your #1 can't catch you.  Part of the game. It could be argued that George has adopted this attitude.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/26/22 10:22 a.m.

In reply to BrewCity20 :

I honestly don't think Ricciardo gave up just willy nilly- I think he saw that the bias was turning heavily against him, and would rather be treated as an equal as opposed to a clear #2.   It would not be the first time one of the better drivers in the field left a leading team to a lesser one- Villeneuve did it after winning a WDC, for example.

BTW, in terms of the clear #2 driver winning, the ONLY #2 that has ever had a realistic chance was when the #1 driver's season was ended by an injury.  That was Irvine when Mike got hurt.  Other than that, I would never consider that the clear #2 driver ever has a realistic chance of winning.

Asphalt_Gundam
Asphalt_Gundam Reader
5/26/22 11:58 a.m.

With regards to RIC,

I see it as a simple question: Would you rather continue with a team that either treats you poorly or is all around a toxic place to work BUT provides a front running car? OR give up the front running car for a move to a mid pack team/environment where you'll be happier?

Isn't the whole grand scheme of the is racing thing that if you're not enjoying it, you're doing it wrong? I personally would end up hating the job and sport enough to throw in the towel all together if subjected to a toxic work place. I could see the "chance" at a WDC being of lesser value than enjoying being an F1 driver.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/26/22 12:37 p.m.

So funny thing about the current Ricciardo discussion- The Race has a video out suggesting that Danny will not be renewed at McLaren....

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