It's not just bumps, the cars can pull themselves down to the surface hard enough to stall the airflow, which decreases the downforce and the car bounces up, where it starts generating downforce again and the cycle repeats. I suspect there's a rapid increase in downforce as it approaches the stall so it's really hard to balance right there. Bumps certainly aren't helping this tendency. Ground effect downforce has always been very sensitive to ride height and can lead to things like backflipping Le Mans cars.
The payoff is the fact that the cars can follow nose to tail indefinitely. That's worthwhile IMO.
Honda powertrains aren't failing because they're now failing under the Red Bull name ;)
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I have to give it to Marko and Christian on that one, they get exclusive access to Honda nee Red Bull engines just as they get really good.. (Nobody but Red Bull cares if a Red Bull engine fails..) That's a win for both sides..
They might be really good this year, but next year it'll be up to RB to keep them good.
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I have to give it to Marko and Christian on that one, they get exclusive access to Honda nee Red Bull engines just as they get really good.. (Nobody but Red Bull cares if a Red Bull engine fails..) That's a win for both sides..
...maybe? Verstappen DNF'd two races with engine issues at the beginning of this year, and there haven't been any hardware changes since then.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I have to give it to Marko and Christian on that one, they get exclusive access to Honda nee Red Bull engines just as they get really good.. (Nobody but Red Bull cares if a Red Bull engine fails..) That's a win for both sides..
...maybe? Verstappen DNF'd two races with engine issues at the beginning of this year, and there haven't been any hardware changes since then.
And didn't alpha tauri have several failures as well? Also an rb engine right?
They are still leading the constructors points, so while it ain't bulletproof it's definitely competitive in the power department.
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:
They are still leading the constructors points, so while it ain't bulletproof it's definitely competitive in the power department.
The car is fast and reliable enough for now. Could be that they got unlucky at the beginning of the year -- or it could be that they've gotten lucky recently. Time will tell. :)
As for the question about downforce vs top speed, it's not that RBR have a low downforce car. They have a car with high downforce efficiency, meaning that for a given amount of downforce they suffer less of a drag penalty than other cars do. So when it comes to trim the car out to get top speed they don't have to drop as much as the other teams do.
RB's 2 (3?) failures early in the season were not engine failures, they were fuel system issues of some sort IIRC?
I didn't hear what happened to Checo, but I think it was a gearbox issue this time.
Didn't RB hire a bunch of the Honda engine guys and move them into their engine shop in England? Probably bought all their equipment too.....
If RB winds up with Porsche engines in 2026, will it all be for naught?
I'm pretty sure Checo was not directly the PU, he seemed to lose the ability to shift. But I seem to recall at least one of the early AT failures was a power unit. It was certainly a wobbly enough start that I would have had some sleepless nights if my last name was Horner. Of course, if my last name was Horner my wife would be trying to murder me in my sleep so I wouldn't be sleeping anyhow. Janel has no time for Christian.
They're leading the constructor's because of Ferrari's ability to step on their own crank and Max's raw talent, not due to high levels of reliability. And of course Alpha Tauri failures don't cause a loss of Red Bull points.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Checo created a whole box full of neutrals. Engine was still running, just no drive.
Perez has shown himself so far to be much more talented than Max. Hopefully, he'll get a chance to be number one somewhere, soon.
racerfink said:
Perez has shown himself so far to be much more talented than Max. Hopefully, he'll get a chance to be number one somewhere, soon.
I'm a pretty big Checho fan, but I don't think there's anyone in the field who's "much more talented" than Max. He's the biggest natural talent to hit the sport since Lewis arrived.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
racerfink said:
Perez has shown himself so far to be much more talented than Max. Hopefully, he'll get a chance to be number one somewhere, soon.
I'm a pretty big Checho fan, but I don't think there's anyone in the field who's "much more talented" than Max. He's the biggest natural talent to hit the sport since Lewis arrived.
thank you for the voice of truth.....
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
racerfink said:
Perez has shown himself so far to be much more talented than Max. Hopefully, he'll get a chance to be number one somewhere, soon.
I'm a pretty big Checho fan, but I don't think there's anyone in the field who's "much more talented" than Max. He's the biggest natural talent to hit the sport since Lewis arrived.
One might argue for Russell, but yeah, Verstappen is a top tier driver in terms of talent.
Verstappen had a fuel fire in Australia, but IIRC the Bahrain retirement was an engine failure.
I've raced for 31 years. Before that, I watched my dad race motocross, both dirt and asphalt cars, autocross, road race, and even do trial bikes. I notice a lot more than lap times when it comes to drivers, and what I notice from Perez tells me if Red Bull would unleash him, Max would be in trouble.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
06HHR (Forum Supporter) said:
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I have to give it to Marko and Christian on that one, they get exclusive access to Honda nee Red Bull engines just as they get really good.. (Nobody but Red Bull cares if a Red Bull engine fails..) That's a win for both sides..
...maybe? Verstappen DNF'd two races with engine issues at the beginning of this year, and there haven't been any hardware changes since then.
I think Max's DNFs were fuel related correct? Although I may be mistaken.
If so that would explain why no big changes to the RB powertrain were needed.
Leclerc changed his engine and according to Binotto was in maximum attack mode at Canada. However he was still .15 down from Max fastest time ( Who I think started cruising). Leclerc's top speed was 206.843 compared to 207.012 Max and Sainz 207.258. You would think that the draft and DRS would give Lerclerc the top speed, perhaps Ferrari had to high of downforce setup?
In reply to trigun7469 :
Didn't they say they even trimmed the wing and were running a low down force setup on Leclerc? And he was still down on top speed?
Agreed on Max, he was under pressure but seemed to have more in pocket at the end of the race.
racerfink said:
I've raced for 31 years. Before that, I watched my dad race motocross, both dirt and asphalt cars, autocross, road race, and even do trial bikes. I notice a lot more than lap times when it comes to drivers, and what I notice from Perez tells me if Red Bull would unleash him, Max would be in trouble.
I agree tentatively....I think Perez was definitely on top of last year's and this year's car faster than Max. If they developed the car for Perez from Bahrain, then yes he may be trouncing Max right now. But I have full confidence in the following statement: RBR will retire Perez's car from the lead if they needed the wheel nuts off his car for Max's next pitstop. Some people love that single mindedness while I think it to be quite opposite of how I would run my team.
So I sure the car will be developed for Max regardless of what Perez is doing.
racerfink said:
I've raced for 31 years. Before that, I watched my dad race motocross, both dirt and asphalt cars, autocross, road race, and even do trial bikes. I notice a lot more than lap times when it comes to drivers, and what I notice from Perez tells me if Red Bull would unleash him, Max would be in trouble.
So what do you mean "unleash?" I don't have near the racing experience of many on here so I'm asking sincerely (plus I wear Max colored glasses). Aside from clearly developing a rake into the car to match Max's driving style, is there other things they are doing to slow Checo down?
I mean, Checo looked awfully fast the first few races and seemed to certainly have the edge on Max in Baku and Monaco (possibly Spain as well).
In reply to accordionfolder :
They must have had Carlos setup confused with Leclerc. The race also made me think that turbulent air is still a issue with passing and they need the gimmicks of DRS and KERS. Although KERS could probably be considered a defending button as well.
BrewCity20 said:
racerfink said:
I've raced for 31 years. Before that, I watched my dad race motocross, both dirt and asphalt cars, autocross, road race, and even do trial bikes. I notice a lot more than lap times when it comes to drivers, and what I notice from Perez tells me if Red Bull would unleash him, Max would be in trouble.
So what do you mean "unleash?" I don't have near the racing experience of many on here so I'm asking sincerely (plus I wear Max colored glasses). Aside from clearly developing a rake into the car to match Max's driving style, is there other things they are doing to slow Checo down?
I mean, Checo looked awfully fast the first few races and seemed to certainly have the edge on Max in Baku and Monaco (possibly Spain as well).
Thank you Bcity20 for putting this out there. Is it truly possible that the "team" would/could corral a principle(driver) in pursuit of the driver/team overall standings to suit that said preferred 'shoe'?
In reply to BrewCity20 :
I have heard experts like Gary Anderson talk about the teams tailoring the car to a certain driver to the detriment of the other driver. If a driver prefers a pointy front end (as an example) and the team develops the car in that direction, it could be really hard for another driver who prefers a stable rear end to wrap his/her head around the set up. Sure, things like wing angles or sway bar rates could be changed but the overall concept that is so carefully developed in the wind tunnel and the shaker rig is not going to suit the other driver.
759NRNG
UberDork
6/22/22 10:55 p.m.
loosecannon said:
In reply to BrewCity20 :
I have heard experts like Gary Anderson talk about the teams tailoring the car to a certain driver to the detriment of the other driver. If a driver prefers a pointy front end (as an example) and the team develops the car in that direction, it could be really hard for another driver who prefers a stable rear end to wrap his/her head around the set up. Sure, things like wing angles or sway bar rates could be changed but the overall concept that is so carefully developed in the wind tunnel and the shaker rig is not going to suit the other driver.
OK.....so RB is so confident that MaxV has it all going on that Checko can be flicked to the curb like a booger??!!!???....sorry may be a bit simplistic but HUH?!?!? what is the underlying motive to execute this drama????.....cuz they can??? Iffen I were holding the purse strings ...all my ponies to the front regardless of finishing position....points are points right???
This explains pretty well what I see in Lewis and Perez.
