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NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
11/26/19 2:54 p.m.

Despite my best efforts, me and the Fitech are not able to reach a point where we are happy with each other. I have pretty much exhausted my patience with the Fitech EFI. Like all relationships I am willing to put the blame on myself if it softens the blow, but I just can't make the Fitech happy and stay happy. Tried to take the Molvo for one last drive this moring, and the Fitech would not stay lit for long enough to drive around the block. The last time I drove it it was fine (ish)

Holley makes a street avenger series of carbs. The question is to go with the 570 or the 670 cfm version for best all around cruising and throttle response. My guess is that my Ford 302 is putting out around 300 Hp at the crank. What are other Ford engined swaps running?

9.5/1 compression

Alloy heads

Dual plane intake

Exploder cam

Hei ignition

Ranger50
Ranger50 UltimaDork
11/26/19 2:56 p.m.

I dunno I ran a 650dp on a stock b303 cammed explorer motor...

Cooter
Cooter UltraDork
11/26/19 4:02 p.m.

If you are using a vacuum secondarys, 670 CFM will be fine.

wearymicrobe
wearymicrobe UberDork
11/26/19 4:06 p.m.

670 is perfect. If the manifold you have does not work with that carb base the 1406 edelbrock will drop on a run with almost no tuning but springs. 

 

ShawnG
ShawnG PowerDork
11/26/19 4:09 p.m.

^what he said.

Those Edelbrocks are a Weber design at heart and work very well.

Dusterbd13-michael
Dusterbd13-michael MegaDork
11/26/19 4:37 p.m.

670 vacuum secondary.

 

And ill give you $175 and a grilled cheese sandwich for the fitech....

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
11/26/19 4:45 p.m.

In reply to Dusterbd13-michael :

Something spectacularily bad is going to happen to the Fitech if and when it comes off; I am thinking an ashphalt roller. I am going to give it one last chance with a smoke machine before I call it quits. I am praying for a vacuum leak somewhere! ( that does not show up on a gauge) It should work, it has worked, but it wont stay the same two days in a row. If I never had to come to a full stop it would be a wonderful device, but it does not like to return to idle.

tester
tester Reader
11/26/19 4:47 p.m.

In reply to ShawnG :

Carter?

 

noddaz
noddaz GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
11/26/19 4:59 p.m.
Cooter said:

If you are using a vacuum secondarys, 670 CFM will be fine.

Because the secondarys will never fully open.  But don't tell the OP.  Of course that IS the beauty  of that type of carb.

Fix the fuel injection. 

ShawnG
ShawnG PowerDork
11/26/19 5:16 p.m.

In reply to tester :

Weber. Carter and Edelbrock both licensed the design.

The W is still on some of the castings.

Sorry about the Hijack.

Cooter
Cooter UltraDork
11/26/19 5:21 p.m.
noddaz said:
Cooter said:

If you are using a vacuum secondarys, 670 CFM will be fine.

Because the secondarys will never fully open.  But don't tell the OP.  Of course that IS the beauty  of that type of carb.

Fix the fuel injection. 

Comeptely false.

You do relize that vacuum secondaries are adjustable, don't you?

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
11/26/19 5:31 p.m.

I mean I got a fancified Holley 650dp mechanical secondaries id trade you!

NOT A TA
NOT A TA SuperDork
11/26/19 6:38 p.m.

Use the 570

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
11/26/19 6:44 p.m.
L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf New Reader
11/26/19 6:46 p.m.

Re: What carb size? I believe Holley has a page where you input your engine info and it will run the calcs to determine what size. There are other sites that do the same that are not affiliated with any carb co so you can get verification.

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf New Reader
11/26/19 6:46 p.m.
Curtis
Curtis GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
11/26/19 7:18 p.m.

Ok... this sort of thing is my bag baby.

There are tons of good carburetors out there.  You kinda can't go wrong with any of the above.  Sizing is the absolute key.

Visit all of the CFM calculators you can find online and they will show you just how oversized people usually go.  Your 302 at 5500 rpm and 80% VE will only consume about 380 cfm.  That isn't to say that 600 or 670 is too big, its just a complete waste of money to go pay for the big carburetor when you don't need it.  Most carburetors will tolerate being oversized as long as you properly tune them, but they absolutely can sacrifice velocity and torque.  There have been hundreds of articles done by Car Craft, Hot Rod, Popular Hot Rodding, Super Chevy.... etc that all show how a properly sized carburetor is faster than an oversized one.

You have to remember that with EFI, you can feed it copious volumes of air and the fact that it isn't burdened with the extra mass of fuel, nor does it have the requirement of keeping the fuel suspended in it, you can have a 9" throttle body and 10 gallon plenum and it won't have as much effect on your powerband as a carburetor.  With the fuel being introduced at or near the throttle body itself in a carb, the need for proper carb and intake choice is paramount for drivability and driving enjoyment.

Sure, if you compare a 390 cfm 2-bbl and an 850 cfm 4-bbl, the 850 might have 5 more hp at redline and WOT, but what happens to the velocity and torque when you stab the throttle at 1000 rpms and 30% of your fuel comes out of suspension?  Keep in mind also, 2bbl carbs are measured at 3"Hg, while 4bbl carbs are measured at 1.5"Hg.  If you compare actual mass flow of at 500cfm 2bbl versus a 500 cfm 4bbl, the 4-pot actually flows more mass than the 2-pot.  CFMs do not always equal CFMs.

There are also huge misconceptions about vacuum secondary versus mechanical.  Vacuum secondaries on most carbs use a vacuum pot to open the secondary throttle.  The only thing this really does is affect the timing of the secondaries opening.  They are tunable, but it's one more thing to worry about.  Vac secondaries have their place just like mechanical.  All of them need to be matched to the engine.

Holley makes great carbs, and most of the Holley-based tuners like quick fuel and avenger do great things with them.  I don't appreciate the power valves and the gaskets below the fuel line.  I also don't like the equally-sized primary/secondary layout of most Holleys.  Trying to get a carburetor to transition from low load to high load with the primaries and secondaries being the same size causes metering things that have to be compensated for in most carbs.  Spreadbore carbs were invented for the street for that reason.  Keep the normal street driving in small primaries for high velocity and super-responsive throttle, and then give the big loads to bigger throttles where it's needed.  The first 50% of the engine's load range can be supplied by much less flow area than the upper 50%.

Edelbrock makes shiny, galvanized-looking bricks that are a re-hash of a Carter air-door carburetor that dates back to the pre-war 40s.  They have made significant upgrades, but they are mostly upgrades to a tired design.  Not a fan.  Easy to work with.. which is good, because they will need a lot of tuning on your part.  They make kind of stabbed guesses at metering.  They have an idle circuit with adjustment screws, but no feedback/heat flow.  Then they have pretty good referenced primaries, then they have big, uninspired secondaries.  This means you'll have A/F ratios that fall close enough to where you want them and can't tell the difference, but they are random stabs at being close.

If you want (in my opinion) the absolute best of the best, Rochester Qjet is the only answer.  They are the single most accurately metering carb you can get.  Period.  I don't care how much money Quick Fuel puts into an old Holley design, they can't copy the metering accuracy of a Qjet.  The other benefit of the Qjet is that they are the only truly flow-sensing design available.  Edelbrock tried to do it in an old Carter design but failed miserably.  It looks like it works, but it doesn't.  If you set it up to actually work as a flow-sensing design, it runs pig rich.  So Edelbrock kinda sat back, defaulted the springs to "whatever" and let them flop open at the slightest hint of flow.

The Qjet has a mechanical secondary throttle (on most models defeated by a lockout when the choke is still on) but a flow-sensing door above the venturi, and most have a vacuum brake on that door.  Ultimately tuneable, and a truly flow-sensing secondary.  Qjets only come in two CFMs... 750 and 800, and yet they were used on everything from Stage 1 Buick 455s and Caddy 500s, all the way down to a 125-hp wheezer 305 and even 3.8L and 4.3L V6s.... AND GM used them all the way up through 1989 when everyone else had to go EFI to comply with EPA long before that.  A 750 cfm carb on a 4.3L V6?  And it passed the new EPA regs as late as 1989?  Yup.  In fact, when GM replaced the Qjet with TBI in the trucks, they almost didn't get the trucks to market because the TBI was very difficult to get to pass.  In the GM circle, one of the easiest ways to gain 5 hp and 3mpg on the 88-93 TBI trucks is to just swap to a Qjet.  I happen to fish every summer for the last 40+ years with the guy who helped originate the Qjet, and was a lead engineer on the TBI.  He apologizes profusely for the absolute fustercluck that is the TBI.  It was rushed to production, poorly designed, and a nightmare to get it to pass.  He remembers late nights trying to get them to work properly, and as a joke one of the guys filled a spray bottle with gasoline to prove that he could squirt fuel more accurately than the TBI.  They were shocked when he could make it idle smoother than the ECM.  In the end, they were able to create a TBI 350 that made a completely useless 180hp/245tq, returned 13 mpg, and barely met EPA guidelines.  

Qjets came in multiple forms and were used on Dodge and Ford for a time under different names, so there are spreadbore intakes for Ford.  Above all, do NOT use an adapter to put a spreadbore carb onto a squarebore intake.  The primaries will have massive velocity drop as they go from tiny to huge, and the secondaries will have the opposite issue going from huge to tiny.  Squarebore carb on a spreadbore intake is fine, although not ideal.

Also, don't get an electronic Qjet.  E-jets (as some of us call them) used a PWM valve to alter primary mixture based on a basic O2 sensor.  They aren't really able to convert to non-electric status without epoxy and drilling, so its just not worth it.  I used to hoard 800cfm Qjets like nobody's business.  At one time I had 2 dozen or more.  I have forgotten more than most will ever know about them, but I could brush up and help you make a killer Qjet that will work beautifully and (with the exception of setting the choke on a cold morning) make you forget it doesn't have EFI.

We can talk intakes if you want as well.

TL,DR... Holley makes great power, but poorer velocity which can mean lower torque, slower throttle response, and lower MPG.  There is a reason racers choose Holley.  Great at WOT, very good at everything else.  Edelbrock makes bricks of aluminum that attempt to mix boom-boom juice and "the airs" in a vaguely acceptable ratio that the spark plug is able to ignite it and they succeed if you tune the crap out of them.  Qjet is a from-scratch, ground up design for street vehicles that excels at drivability, MPG, and still delivers all the performance because they made the only true carb that can be oversized but still sense flow and have the same level of accuracy on a 500" engine as it does on a 231" engine.

 

759NRNG
759NRNG UltraDork
11/26/19 7:38 p.m.

Why haven't you been hired as the 'INTERN' ?????  yet... dude my eyes crossed and I have to come back to parargraph4-5 tomorrow to finish this dissertation for your graduation......

Cotton
Cotton PowerDork
11/26/19 8:50 p.m.

I like Quick Fuel carbs.  Some nice features and easy to tune.

dropstep
dropstep UltraDork
11/26/19 9:00 p.m.

I'm a Holley fan boy pretty much, but it's what I learned on and had a bunch of parts for. It was also the best cold weather start I ever had. My 300hp crate engine came with a 600 cfm edelbrock recommended and i went with a 650 mechanical secondary Holley and had no issues. It was a street car that got drag raced. I also got a really good deal on a freshly rebuilt 750 vacuum secondary Holley that I used on a 302 then 351 with just spring changes in the secondary's it worked fantastic on both engines even being way oversized for the mostly stock 302.

wawazat
wawazat HalfDork
11/26/19 9:01 p.m.

I haven’t followed your whole build thread but do recall your struggles with FiTech.  I have it on my 351 Cleveland in my 1969 Cougar.  Biggest issues I had were first fuel pump (Tanks Inc GPS-4) not playing nice with the controller and EMI/RFI with the value tach wire.   I bought the entire package from Summit on their recommendation and when pump failed they gave me full credit towards it’s replacement.  I also wrapped the tach signal wire (blue) in a layer of copper mesh then wrapped with a layer of AL tape.  I have read that SBF tend to be harder the FiTech ECU than rear distributor motors due to proximity.   I have a giant body MSD in place so I got that going for me too.  

Not trying to dissuade you from crushing the thing just sharing my experiences.  If you’ve done these things already sorry for throwing in my $.02 and good luck with your next steps!

pres589 (djronnebaum)
pres589 (djronnebaum) PowerDork
11/26/19 9:56 p.m.

One of the smaller Q-Jet's does sound about right for this thing.

03Panther
03Panther New Reader
11/26/19 10:48 p.m.

Thanks, Curtis, for saying it all better than I could! Most people see BIG CARB, WENT FAST, means bigger carb is better... and been repeated FOREVER. Kinda like the "3/4" cams a lot of my high school friends "had" in their cars! Or people hating Quadra-Bogs. I, myself, never had a good enough ear for fine tuning, so have always been ok with a "close enough' Carter AFB (later Edl., or Weber) I CAN get a Holly dialed in close enough for the street, but have to fiddle with it again if the temp. / barometer changes overnight!!! The AFB stays close enough all year.

What about this new Thermoquad copy that Demon has out (with their over advertising hype fancy name secondary) After throwing out the hype, they look promising. Most Thermoquads has been swapped for Hollys by the late 70's when I started playing, so I;ve never had my **** beaters on one.

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
11/27/19 7:54 a.m.

In reply to Curtis :

Thank you for taking the time to write all that.

I default to Holley because other than SUs, they are what I know best from a distant past of drag racing. A Q-jet was always the carb we would remove to install the Holley. I know well the fallacy of too much cfm, so just want to make sure I don't go too small. I am thinking the 570 Holley Avenger might be the way to go. Hopefully the blown power booster valve thing where it fails every time the engine backfires has been resolved.

The reason for giving up on the Fitech is because it will not return to idle without either dying or making like it wants to die. The missus now fears the car and I find myself walking past it because : "I just want to drive somewhere, not have some grand adventure in trying to get back". Other than the idle issues, it does a great job of mixing fuel and telling you all about how well it is doing so. I can berkeley with the decel/re-acceland idle  settings and get it running almost acceptable for the day, but when you come back the next day it has an entirely new personality about approaching idle. situations. 

akylekoz
akylekoz SuperDork
11/27/19 8:24 a.m.

My teen years were spent on Q-jets and timing sets.  Any old lump I found would get a refresh of both and run like a top.   Typically stuffing an Olds 455 in something or just flipping for fun.   Those Q-jets would get a standard refresh set to factory specs and just run smooth,-10 degrees to 90 no problem.

Just loved listening to a frozen 455 come to life on five then six, seven then all eight, idle up for a minute then settle in so slow you could read the belts. 

Not much help but totally agree on sizing properly, I sold a Holley 390 four barrel  because it was too big for my 2.3 mustang lump, almost kept it for use on a 302.

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