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Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
8/2/22 10:11 p.m.
pointofdeparture said:

"I'm gun-shy buying the first model year of anything, maybe the second or third model year" I said. "That's not a problem anymore, manufacturers have that stuff figured out these days," the Internet said. frown

Really hope the manufacturers make this right for affected owners. Totally crappy situation!

I'm a pilot. We hold "Never fly the A model of anything" to be truth.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/2/22 10:14 p.m.
carguy123 said:

I'm curious, are these engines assembled by Subaru and then sold to Toyota or does Toyota assemble them?

Both the Subaru and Toyota versions are built on the same line in the Gunma, Japan plant.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UltimaDork
8/3/22 6:49 a.m.
adam525i said:

It's a tough call unless they start equipping the ECU's with G sensors to checkup on what the car has seen (not unlike checking for over-revs in the case of an engine failure). 

I have no idea how much a stock one logs and/or how long it keeps it, but I know that the ABS/VSC system on the first generation cars has plenty of G sensors which can be logged using aftermarket software.

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/3/22 8:09 a.m.

Yeah every car now has at least a few accelerometers on it for traction/stability control. These cars have a g force meter in one of the dash screens (somewhat hilariously only accessible with stability control on...though you probably shouldn't be looking at that while doing any aggressive driving anyway). No idea how much any of it is logged.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
8/3/22 8:36 a.m.

Just to illustrate the issue at hand, here are pictures of the oil pickup from the failed '22 GR86 in the news, and a new '22 BRZ that an owner decided to inspect just in case:

racerfink
racerfink UberDork
8/3/22 8:56 a.m.
dps214 said:

Yeah every car now has at least a few accelerometers on it for traction/stability control. These cars have a g force meter in one of the dash screens (somewhat hilariously only accessible with stability control on...though you probably shouldn't be looking at that while doing any aggressive driving anyway). No idea how much any of it is logged.

I know that for at least the last ten years, cars record the last five seconds of data.  In case of a "serious event", that last five seconds of data can be retrieved by law enforcement.  Some manufacturers record every tenth of a second, and a few only record every half second.

The amount of data recorded fills a couple of pages.  Each corner has wheel speed, abs, and psi, depending on options. They also record torque converter lockup, throttle position, rpm, vehicle speed, steering angle, seat belt fastened or not, if the doors are locked...  just a bunch of data.

wae
wae PowerDork
8/3/22 9:41 a.m.
racerfink said:
dps214 said:

Yeah every car now has at least a few accelerometers on it for traction/stability control. These cars have a g force meter in one of the dash screens (somewhat hilariously only accessible with stability control on...though you probably shouldn't be looking at that while doing any aggressive driving anyway). No idea how much any of it is logged.

I know that for at least the last ten years, cars record the last five seconds of data.  In case of a "serious event", that last five seconds of data can be retrieved by law enforcement.  Some manufacturers record every tenth of a second, and a few only record every half second.

The amount of data recorded fills a couple of pages.  Each corner has wheel speed, abs, and psi, depending on options. They also record torque converter lockup, throttle position, rpm, vehicle speed, steering angle, seat belt fastened or not, if the doors are locked...  just a bunch of data.

It would also be rather trivial for the system to be coded to store a "highest recorded value" for each of those inputs as well.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 9:48 a.m.
Javelin said:

Calling it now, today's FRS/BRZ/GR86's are tomorrow's RX-8's. Fantastic chassis that can be had dirt cheap all day long with blown motors ripe for engine swaps!

Been saying this for a while now. But you can similarly prep the engine to survive from day one, that's my strategy wink

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 10:00 a.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

How do you prep to keep RTV out of the oil pickup?

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand UberDork
8/3/22 10:12 a.m.
Javelin said:

In reply to GameboyRMH :

How do you prep to keep RTV out of the oil pickup?

It should just be a one-time issue, the way I understand it. The factory mis-applied, and the excess "squish" broke off into the oil pan. Once you drop the pan and clean it all out, it should be fixed forever, provided you don't over-apply when reinstalling the oil pan.

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/3/22 10:12 a.m.

Here we have Mr Suddard Jr teaching the guys at Subaru how to put together the oil pan at the factory.

 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
8/3/22 10:13 a.m.

In reply to Slippery :

We remembered we had that footage from the Fox build last night, and figured now was a good time to post it. We were so far ahead of our time!

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 10:17 a.m.

You R&R the oil pan and reinstall it without excess RTV?

That Facebook post where the guy scoped it and then removed his pan as linked above - he used waay too much RTV to reinstall it, so now he's still at risk of the same problem AND he's voided his warranty. I do wonder if there was a problem with the RTV, though, because Miatas use this same sealing method and users have been globbing away for years. If the RTV at the factory was old or improperly cured, any excess could break free instead of staying in place.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 10:18 a.m.

With the sort of obstruction being shown here, these engines were going to fail even if they were just being used for commuting. The thing that's killing them is probably not lateral Gs but high engine RPM with insufficient oil flow. 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Director of Marketing & Digital Assets
8/3/22 10:22 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

You R&R the oil pan and reinstall it without excess RTV?

Nope. I figured something else in the drivetrain would explode before the RTV broke off, and I was right!

 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/3/22 10:26 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

With the sort of obstruction being shown here, these engines were going to fail even if they were just being used for commuting. The thing that's killing them is probably not lateral Gs but high engine RPM with insufficient oil flow. 

Apparently it's a 5 sided pickup and all the gunk is collecting at the one parallel to the pan and the 4 vertical sides are staying clear. 

I still think that is likely causing cavitation due to lack of flow at higher RPMs because the pickup can't physically pull enough oil in. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 10:33 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

Same thought I have without the knowledge of the pickup construction :) It's not track days and autocrosses and lateral G, it's sustained high RPM. Oil pressure problems right when you need it the most. And high RPM is not exclusive to track days and autocrosses, especially not on a sports car. Toyota might want to deny warranty due to the use but I suspect they'll start popping on the street soon enough.

Asphalt_Gundam
Asphalt_Gundam Reader
8/3/22 10:52 a.m.
Slippery said:

Here we have Mr Suddard Jr teaching the guys at Subaru how to put together the oil pan at the factory.

 

That's WAY too much silicone.

When using silicone on anything engine related the goal is the least amount required. If for example there's actually a gasket that gets used on that surface too then you should be smearing the silicone to a thin (just enough to make a tacky surface) layer. Big 'ol beads on anything other than the intake to block end rails of a V8 (throwing away those gaskets entirely) is just asking for problems.

Once has a customer come in screaming about how I gave them an incorrectly machined block that blew up their engine. I tell him to bring it back and I'll have a look. This thing had 1/2" + of silicone coming out of every gasket surface....had to have used a full tube just for the oil pan. Same thing with the oil pump and pickup tube (which btw are machined surfaces and only require the thinnest of silicone layer). So much excess was present that the oil pump was 90+ percent clogged.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/3/22 11:12 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

In reply to z31maniac :

Same thought I have without the knowledge of the pickup construction :) It's not track days and autocrosses and lateral G, it's sustained high RPM. Oil pressure problems right when you need it the most. And high RPM is not exclusive to track days and autocrosses, especially not on a sports car. Toyota might want to deny warranty due to the use but I suspect they'll start popping on the street soon enough.

Imagine a 4-sided cheese grater, but where the handle is, is another side where oil can be drawn in. And the bottom (like the cheese grater) is open to feed the pickup. 

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 11:20 a.m.

In reply to Asphalt_Gundam :

I was taught to use ~1mm bead on a flat surface, tighten some of the way, let it start to set, and then final tighten. I've had amazing results doing that. 
To get a 1mm bead, cut a small angled hole in the applicator, and use some kind of trigger mechanism to get even hand application. 
 

What shocks me here is the production use of RTV. 

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/3/22 11:24 a.m.
alfadriver said:

In reply to Asphalt_Gundam :

What shocks me here is the production use of RTV. 

I mean ... that's nothing new. It has been used since the 80's at least. Toyota FPIG and Hondabond are the best thing since sliced bread.

Edit: Also, its not like they have a guy on the line applying the RTV. This is a fully automated CNC robot, see video below. Either, like Keith suggested, the material was not kept at optimum conditions, or they programed the wrong amount/speed/used incorrect nozzle ... who knows.

You can tell I watched hundreds of these videos. You can actually drop me at the Berlin BMW factory tomorrow and I can tell you where all the screws are to put together an R1200GSA, I can jump right on the line and start assembling them :D

 

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf HalfDork
8/3/22 11:35 a.m.

Just a thought / question. Why not make a DIY gasket?

A somewhat thin one that you would then spray with Copper Coat or similar.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 11:36 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I understand that. Makes no difference how it's constructed. The oil pickup is partially obstructed. This will show up when there is maximum demand for flow. The construction of the pickup filter isn't really a factor, the important thing is that it's clogged to some extent. Subaru felt it needed X square inches of surface area to meet requirements, it does not have that anymore.

 

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/3/22 11:40 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I do wonder if there was a problem with the RTV, though, because Miatas use this same sealing method and users have been globbing away for years. If the RTV at the factory was old or improperly cured, any excess could break free instead of staying in place.

That was a thought we had as well. The RTV really shouldn't be breaking off. But apparently on the timing cover it's in a place where the timing chains can grab the RTV blobs and rip them off. So there's a decent chance that the oil pan joint isn't the actual source of the issue.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/3/22 11:45 a.m.
Slippery said:
alfadriver said:

In reply to Asphalt_Gundam :

What shocks me here is the production use of RTV. 

I mean ... that's nothing new. It has been used since the 80's at least. Toyota FPIG and Hondabond are the best thing since sliced bread.

Let me tell you about the oil pan on the Ford Escort GT with the BP engine... ;)

 

I don't think the problem here is the use of RTV (or more likely, elastomeric rubber, which most people think of as the same stuff but it AFAIK it isn't). There's something wrong with the application at the factory.

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