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Junkyard_Dog
Junkyard_Dog SuperDork
6/26/14 11:46 a.m.

IF the cost doesn't balloon out of control this is a great swap for a tired stock Miata engine. Given the choice of putting a turbo on a 250k mile engine or swapping it for a 100k mile V6 with similar power to a turbo, I'll pick the swap every time.

Rupert
Rupert HalfDork
6/26/14 11:59 a.m.
Keith Tanner wrote:
My V8 puts down 300 ft-lbs at 1800 and is over 400 at anything above 2900. That is why people like V8s.
I believe we're all pretty aware of the capabilities of added cubic inches. That's why I loved 454's and 502's as gasoline boat motors. That doesn't mean I want to drive a chevy wannabe on the street or track. If I did, I'd buy a chevy in the first place. I have noticed you're sounding pretty defensive in this thread. Do you feel any threat to your wallet should be stamped out as soon as possible?
Zomby Woof
Zomby Woof PowerDork
6/26/14 11:59 a.m.
ProDarwin wrote: If people are truly putting ecotecs into miatas, I'm trying to figure out the advantage of either of those vs. a simple LSJ swap.

I think I misunderstood your post, so I edited it.

Here, a decent K24 is ridiculously expensive. Eco/LSJ makes sense to me for a few reasons.

Swank Force One
Swank Force One MegaDork
6/26/14 12:03 p.m.

F2Ts fall out of the sky for free. Just sayin'.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UberDork
6/26/14 12:19 p.m.
bravenrace wrote: Hey, I ran into a guy at Super Summit this past weekend that put a Honda B series in the front of a Corvair. It was FWD and he even grafted a Civic dashboard into it. He said it was a remarkably easy swap. While a appreciated the high level of work he did, I left wondering what would possess him to do a swap like that.

That could have been awesome if there was a second B series in the trunk.

bravenrace
bravenrace MegaDork
6/26/14 12:27 p.m.

In reply to MadScientistMatt:

I agree! But I looked and there wasn't.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/26/14 12:35 p.m.
Rupert wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote:
My V8 puts down 300 ft-lbs at 1800 and is over 400 at anything above 2900. That is why people like V8s.
I believe we're all pretty aware of the capabilities of added cubic inches. That's why I loved 454's and 502's as gasoline boat motors. That doesn't mean I want to drive a chevy wannabe on the street or track. If I did, I'd buy a chevy in the first place. I have noticed you're sounding pretty defensive in this thread. Do you feel any threat to your wallet should be stamped out as soon as possible?

No, I'm simply a little more aware of the difference between arm-waving promises and the realities of doing something well. I've spent a little more time on this sort of stuff than some.

But there was a question about torque levels and also why there was so much interest in V8s. So I connected the dots. Chevy doesn't make a car that handles like a Miata, and Mazda doesn't make an engine with the character of a Chevy V8. There were probably AC enthusiasts who felt that Shelby ruined the original car with that Ford engine - if they'd wanted a Ford, they would have bought a Ford. Maybe they felt Shelby should have used a V6

If this is well implemented and comes without downsides such as a rock magnet oil pan that hangs 1" below the steering rack, it could be an excellent option. It does keep some potential weak points from the original car, which needs to be taken into account before this is hailed as the next ultimate thing. That transmission, for example, is a problem for turbo track cars. It will remain at least as much of a problem (or more) with high power V6s that make more torque down low. So anyone who's dreaming of this as a bulletproof track car will have to keep that in mind.

Will it be a good alternative to putting a turbo on a tired engine? Quite possibly. Again, you'll want to compare like for like, taking into account the amount of realistic labor involved to make it happen. I don't have any first-hand experience with Mini Tec's conversions, so I don't know how much they leave to the installer to figure out.

aussiesmg
aussiesmg MegaDork
6/26/14 12:39 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: Just found the magazine and read the blurb. Sounds promising, they're aiming at the cheap swap market. If the details are properly worked out, it could be a good option for street cars although there's potential for some trans carnage. No obvious shortcuts in the picture in the implementation, although I suspect the intake could be improved.
Keith Tanner wrote: I think this swap has got some potential, and I wish the car had stuck around for Sunday at the Mitty so I could have checked it out. But at the moment, the costs are the hand waving optimistic types and the power numbers are of the internet "just add a chip and an exhaust" type. I'm looking forward to seeing more info and details on how they made it work.
Keith Tanner wrote:
Bobzilla wrote: but it's a Honda, so that torque is up high (compared to a turbo car or V8). When you're not shocking the trans with insta-torque, it'll last longer. After driving a few of those engines, I find the 250 number a bit optimistic.
Rated peak torque for that engine is at 3500. I just checked on a 280 hp turbo Miata dyno chart, peak torque (280 ft-lbs) was at 5100 and was pretty weedy at 3500. Some of that is due to altitude. So I checked another turbo dyno chart from a third party, and it showed 301 hp and about 300 ft-lbs with the torque peak at 4600. Torque at 3500 was about 160. So maybe the torque isn't quite so high compared to a turbo car. My V8 puts down 300 ft-lbs at 1800 and is over 400 at anything above 2900. That is why people like V8s.

Not defensive at all IMHO, I suggest that was somewhat harsh as Keith's earlier statement was just facts about his own vehicle.

Remember, Keith's car has been built and is actually a package that can be purchased complete, (with working gauges and everything) or for the consumer to install, the Honda deal is yet to be proven.

dculberson
dculberson UberDork
6/26/14 12:41 p.m.
Swank Force One wrote: I'm looking at the K24 from a "lighter, more zing-y, more huger aftermarket" perspective. Again, not saying the J sucks. A worked K24 in the 260-300whp n/a range attached to a miata 6psd wearing a 4.77 kia R&P out back sounds like the bee's knees.

Sure, I'm not saying the K sucks either, but I don't believe in comparing modified engines to stock engines. Any work you do to the K you can do to the J. You asked a good reason for the J over the K and I gave you two good ones: price and power. K can be great, but there's still a compelling argument for the J.

Keith's posts weren't defensive in the least, Rupert. He's very educated on this subject and has a lot of good input to make. Calm down.

bravenrace
bravenrace MegaDork
6/26/14 12:53 p.m.

If done right, this provides an option for those who would like more power than the stock car offers, without the monster power that the V-8 would have. I see nothing wrong with this. I'd rather drive a 300hp V-6 Miata at closer to 10/10 than a 400hp V-8 Miata at something much less than that, and on the street, how often can you use all the power of the V-8? I know the answer to that one all too well. I love the power of my Mustang, but there's something about running my CRX through the gears that is much more satisfying than the power of the Mustang. Street and track are also two very different things. In a street car I think I'd prefer the V-6 Miata. On the track I might rather have the V-8. There's need, want, and room for both.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/26/14 1:24 p.m.

There's a particular car in our shop that I think would work well with a V6. I don't know which V6 or if it will ever happen, but I am certainly looking forward to more information on this swap. I think it's got more promise than some of the others I've seen, but it's also still pretty early days.

bravenrace
bravenrace MegaDork
6/26/14 1:26 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

What makes it a car that would work well with a V-6, more than others? Just curious.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/26/14 1:28 p.m.

Keith.. So here's the way to gauge it.

Build a LSx powered machine and a J35 powered machine. Deliver both to my house in Seattle. I promise to be a fair and impartial judge of the capabilites of both. I will return the vehicles three years from delivery with a 100 page dissertation on each combinations strengths and weaknesses. (cars may be returned with more cone rash than they were received with).

bravenrace
bravenrace MegaDork
6/26/14 1:35 p.m.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine:

A sample size of one isn't really adequate for evaluation of a new product. I would say they should at least provide two more examples and send them to me for another opinion...Oh, and I rarely hit cones, so they might come back in better shape than the others. Just sayin'

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/26/14 1:37 p.m.
bravenrace wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: What makes it a car that would work well with a V-6, more than others? Just curious.

Well, you know, it's more appropriate and all that

I was thinking a V6 would be an interesting option for the Catfish. Since there's a turbo bolted to the side of the engine in there now, it will likely never happen. But I thought the flavor would be an interesting one, a more exotic alternative to the typical Cobra kit. I'd want it to wail instead of roar. The V6 would give it the torque and multi-cylinder smoothness but separate it from the snakes a bit further.

On my way in to work in a street LS3 Miata instead of my usual 1.8 swapped, turbo street car I was trying to imagine what it would be like with a V6 instead. And I'm back where I started - it's either not enough reward for the work or it's a great middle ground. I don't know yet, I need more info.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/26/14 1:39 p.m.

Tell you guys what. You buy me all the parts and the car, I'll build you a V6 car. I will test it exhaustively before delivery.

Swank Force One
Swank Force One MegaDork
6/26/14 1:39 p.m.

I'd love to see a comparison between all the "typical" swapped Miatas down the road.

Hint hint.

Driven5
Driven5 HalfDork
6/26/14 1:40 p.m.
bravenrace wrote: What makes it a car that would work well with a V-6, more than others? Just curious.

An MSM and it's slightly strengthened transmission, with a 3.636 gear set swapped in the rear end?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/26/14 1:44 p.m.

But then you'll ruin the Mazdaspeed and its perfect factory-designed turbo balance!

Swank Force One
Swank Force One MegaDork
6/26/14 1:46 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: But then you'll ruin the Mazdaspeed and its perfect factory-designed turbo balance!

*Giggle

*Snort

Now that that car is gone, i can freely say how badly that car frustrated me and how much i hated it for it.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
6/26/14 1:51 p.m.

V6 swap wise, I think I like the Lincoln V6 Miata. All it really needed was a better intake manifold. That was pretty cool.

But I'm as biased as Kieth is (not that I personally worked on it).

nderwater
nderwater PowerDork
6/26/14 1:51 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: But then you'll ruin the Mazdaspeed and its perfect factory-designed turbo balance!

Not to derail the thread, but has there ever been a response from Mazda about why the Mazdaspeed came to market half baked?

Swank Force One
Swank Force One MegaDork
6/26/14 2:01 p.m.
nderwater wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: But then you'll ruin the Mazdaspeed and its perfect factory-designed turbo balance!
Not to derail the thread, but has there ever been a response from Mazda about why the Mazdaspeed came to market half baked?

Mazda like to either half-bake everything Mazdaspeed branded, or if they don't, they make sure to sneak in one glaring flaw just to keep things even.

moxnix
moxnix HalfDork
6/26/14 2:09 p.m.
Swank Force One wrote:
nderwater wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: But then you'll ruin the Mazdaspeed and its perfect factory-designed turbo balance!
Not to derail the thread, but has there ever been a response from Mazda about why the Mazdaspeed came to market half baked?
Mazda like to either half-bake everything Mazdaspeed branded, or if they don't, they make sure to sneak in one glaring flaw just to keep things even.

I am pretty sure they were fully baked when designing the Mazdaspeed Protege.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
6/26/14 2:23 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: Tell you guys what. You buy me all the parts and the car, I'll build you a V6 car. I will test it exhaustively before delivery.

Sorry, don't trust you to be impartial. I currently own neither a miata nor a v8 one....

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