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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/12/21 12:24 p.m.

The Telsa chargers use a proprietary standard because there was no appropriate public standard at the time they started building their network. They built a Tesla-only charging infrastructure because there wasn't an alternative. In Europe, they use CCS and non-Teslas are allowed to use them. Tesla offered to let other OEs use them in the US but the terms were not acceptable. I expect the Tesla chargers will likely get converted to something else at some point. This is the price of that early lead in the market, you either become the standard or you become a weird offshoot. Given the number of Teslas, it may be a middle ground where they're the electric equivalent of diesel cars. Or leaded fuel.

I don't blame Tesla for preventing salvage cars from being able to take a 250 kW power jolt. If that car has been badly repaired and burns to the ground, it doesn't look good for Tesla. It will be interesting to see how Ford/Porsche/VW/etc treat this same problem. Same reason GM won't sell you an e-crate until you've been through some training sessions. Maybe there will be a way to have a destroyed Tesla inspected and given the green light to take the big amps again.

 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
11/12/21 12:30 p.m.
New York Nick said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Don't get me wrong, I am not poo pooing this idea. I am a huge EV proponent. I want to see the side by side because I think it will give an honest comparison. I believe that the comparison will exceed many people's expectations. I regularly have discussions with hard line ICE people that won't acknowledge the strengths of EV's and come up with ridiculous scenarios to bag EV's. I think an honest side by side comparison of a real world drive is a great means to silence the haters and to showcase the technology.  For example, the crying about charging a vehicle with a trailer, may be real, may not be. I pulled a 23' trailer over 3k miles this year with a suburban and averaged 6.34 mpg. If you aren't skilled at backing up a trailer and planning how to take it in and out of places you are in for a world of hurt at a busy Sheetz in Virginia. Probably not terribly different at the charging post.

I probably come across as overly supportive of EV's. ( which is weird considering my hobby is racing old ICE's )   
   I've just supported the idea since way before there were practical real world solutions like Tesla, Chevy Volt, and Ford F-150 EV's.  
 I love the 4 strokes to get one power stroke. multiple moving parts that start and stop thousands of times a minute.  It's kind of  my version of steam punk appreciation.   But as a way to commute?  Insanity.  I've got an alarm clock from  the 1960's  and for 60 years that thing has reliably woke me up.  there is a fan in the shop from the 1930's 

  It's just electric stuff seems far more reliable and efficient doing  task like traveling. 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
11/12/21 4:17 p.m.

I don't think this will be as enlightening Eisenhower's 1919 transcontinental convoy.  
 

 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
11/12/21 4:35 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

I don't think this will be as enlightening Eisenhower's 1919 transcontinental convoy.  

Of course not, the Lightning is a Ford truck.  This one would be enRivianing :)

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/12/21 4:37 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

On that note, if I were Tesla, I'd see the writing on the wall with actual, well-established automakers entering the fray, and shift focus to licensing technology and data and the charging network.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/12/21 5:04 p.m.

How long until Tesla is considered an actual, well-established automaker? They've got factories on two continents with a European one under construction now. They have the best selling vehicle in Europe - not just the best selling EV, the best selling passenger vehicle overall with nearly 30% more sales than the #2 spot. Ford's CEO is specifically calling out where Tesla has them beat in internal meetings, as is the CEO of VW. Interestingly, both of those are focused on manufacturing, the actual business of making cars.

They have offered to open up the Supercharger network in the past, as well as licensing tech. I suspect there's quite a bit of Not Invented Here resistance, although maybe not so much anymore. As noted, in the Netherlands the Supercharger network is open to non-Tesla vehicles and there was a recent news story about the experience of charging a Porsche Taycan at one. I suspect the primary resistance (har har) to doing it in the US is the different physical connections that have been rolled out.

Jerry From LA
Jerry From LA SuperDork
11/12/21 6:10 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

After Toyota came up with the Prius, Nissan decided to avoid reinventing the wheel and just licensed Toyota's system.  I believe Tesla has always thought the real money is in the licensing of their technology rather than building the whole car.  At some point, the other guys will realize it's easier to take advantage of an infrastructure that's already present (Supercharging) rather than start from scratch.  Things are moving fast.

landstuhltaylor
landstuhltaylor New Reader
11/13/21 8:10 a.m.

I want this to be successful, would definitely allow me to consolidate two cars into one. I think that time is a ways off though at least for regular 4+ hour tows. So for now I'll continue to wait for something like an electric GTI/SI for DD duties and keep the TDI Touareg purely for towing the open car hauler.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
11/13/21 8:16 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

How long until Tesla is considered an actual, well-established automaker? They've got factories on two continents with a European one under construction now. They have the best selling vehicle in Europe - not just the best selling EV, the best selling passenger vehicle overall with nearly 30% more sales than the #2 spot. Ford's CEO is specifically calling out where Tesla has them beat in internal meetings, as is the CEO of VW. Interestingly, both of those are focused on manufacturing, the actual business of making cars.

They have offered to open up the Supercharger network in the past, as well as licensing tech. I suspect there's quite a bit of Not Invented Here resistance, although maybe not so much anymore. As noted, in the Netherlands the Supercharger network is open to non-Tesla vehicles and there was a recent news story about the experience of charging a Porsche Taycan at one. I suspect the primary resistance (har har) to doing it in the US is the different physical connections that have been rolled out.

Tesla isn't offering to open their supercharging stations up to others out of the generosity of their heart are they?  
  Won't they make a profit from each charge?  

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/13/21 8:32 a.m.

That would be unamerican!

I don't know. I did find this from 2015, but that was a long time ago. At the time, I don't think any other EVs could fast charge - thus the comment about "able to take the power output".

Our Supercharger network is not intended to be a walled garden. It’s intended to be available to other manufacturers if they’d like to use it. The only requirements are that the cars must be able to take the power output of our Superchargers, and then just pay whatever their proportion their usage is of the system.

mtn
mtn MegaDork
11/13/21 10:49 a.m.

Google maps says this is about 33-34 hours. For me, that is 3-4 days. I anticipate that this will take them about 42-45 hours, and still take 3-4 days. 
 

I would say in a comparable gas truck, this would be 34-36 hours. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/13/21 11:00 a.m.

The problem for charging while towing a trailer is not about access, charging connection location, or the ability to back a trailer. 
 

The problem is in almost every conceivable configuration, the trailer is blocking passage routes for other vehicles while the electric vehicle is charging.
 

Very few charge stations are installed in a manner that a truck with a trailer could pull up to them without blocking traffic for the duration of the charging time. It hasn't been necessary before now. 

That's a lot of road rage waiting to happen. 

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/13/21 8:57 p.m.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

The Tesla charger is going to want to see a Tesla on the other end of the connector.  IIRC they go so far as to prevent a VIN that has been reported as totaled from using the Supercharger network.

Never is a very long time.

Tesla built a Tesla-only charging infrastructure in order to sell more Tesla cars.  Right now that infrastructure is a competitive advantage -- people will buy Teslas in preference to other brands because they get access to that infrastructure.  That's a short-term thing though, 5-10 years from now it's not going to matter.  I expect Tesla will either open up the charging network to all cars by that point or (more likely, IMHO) sell it to another company for whom charging is their primary business model.

And yes, Tesla has their own proprietary charging protocol right now.  That's also a short-term problem, new standards for these sorts of things are coming out all the time and charging stations get retrofitted with updates.

Agree. As someone who has a good amount of stock holdings in Chargepoint, EVGO, and Volta I pay pretty close attention to what those companies are up to. The bottom line is that all three are growing pretty rapidly, and that will increase substantially with the influx of money from the infrastructure bill (also, stock prices are going up nicely on them). Literally every shopping center around here is full of Volta or EVGO chargers (I rarely see Tesla ones, though there are a billion Teslas in this area (DC), but can't say I've been looking for them so I'm sure there's plenty). Now, not sure what the charge voltage is on those vs. Tesla (another thing I'll worry about once I actually own an EV), so there is that point. 

OT - if you want EV stock, get some Fisker on Monday. It's going to go up substantially on the 17th or so, I expect. 

irish44j (Forum Supporter)
irish44j (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/13/21 9:03 p.m.
SVreX (Forum Supporter) said:

The problem for charging while towing a trailer is not about access, charging connection location, or the ability to back a trailer. 
 

The problem is in almost every conceivable configuration, the trailer is blocking passage routes for other vehicles while the electric vehicle is charging.
 

Very few charge stations are installed in a manner that a truck with a trailer could pull up to them without blocking traffic for the duration of the charging time. It hasn't been necessary before now. 

That's a lot of road rage waiting to happen. 

Yup, most of the shopping center charging stations in this area are right up front in the parking lot or in areas where getting a trailer in there would be unfeasible. If you pulled in with a trailer you'd block an entire row of the lot. They key is going to be where in the lot the stations are located as to whether you can physically (or politely) actually use it with a trailer. 

I suppose the other alternative is just to have an electric tongue jack on your trailer and you can just unhook quickly, go charge, and re-hook. It's a hassle with a hand-crank, but probably less of a hassle with an electric jack. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/13/21 9:44 p.m.

 Most of the Tesla stations I've come across have been close to interstates, not shopping centers. They certainly are at shopping centers as well, but I think Tesla tried to address the road tripper before the in-town shopper. You have less need for high speed charging when you've got a big battery,  at least an hour of expected park time and you're likely in your home town. 

I believe EVGO is targeting the shopping center/movie theater area specifically. More for the "convenience charging" market - I'm going to the movies, so why not slurp some electrons? Or, I can't charge at home so I'll get that done while I'm shopping.

It won't be hard to solve the trailer access problem, just like we managed to solve the same problem with diesel pickups. Mostly :) It just has to be done. Luckily, it'll be a while before EVs are towing really big trailers so we have some time to get that done. 

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
11/13/21 10:36 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

It won't be hard to solve the trailer access problem, just like we managed to solve the same problem with diesel pickups. Mostly :) It just has to be done. Luckily, it'll be a while before EVs are towing really big trailers so we have some time to get that done. 

Yeah, basically you just need long pull-through spots like they usually have on the truck/RV side of freeway rest areas.  In fact, that's probably not a bad place to put some chargers.  People aren't likely to want to charge while towing at the Target or Whole Foods in the center of town, it's going to be right off the freeway.

Unhitching the trailer is doable but kind of a pain in the butt, and unhitched trailers are something of a theft target.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
11/13/21 11:52 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

On that note, if I were Tesla, I'd see the writing on the wall with actual, well-established automakers entering the fray, and shift focus to licensing technology and data and the charging network.

Oh  you mean like Chrysler that went bankrupt twice or GM that went bankrupt once?  
   Tesla is ahead of the technology and doesn't have the massive management overhead the so called established companies do. 

SVreX (Forum Supporter)
SVreX (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
11/14/21 6:50 a.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I agree freeway rest stops would be a fantastic place for chargers. 
 

If only they weren't so far from adequate electricity...

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/14/21 10:15 a.m.

There are already chargers at rest stops in California. And if there isn't enough power available now, that's a problem we know how to solve.

Putting a high speed charger in a small town may undo some of the damage done by the interstates in the first place. I now have a new go-to deli in Idaho Springs because of charging stops, and that's a town I've avoided visiting for the past two decades.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/14/21 10:27 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

How long until Tesla is considered an actual, well-established automaker?

The vehicles they make can't be taken seriously.  Switchgear is replaced by a big smartphone in the dashboard, they even started putting ridiculous Knight Rider steering wheels in cars.

I mean, yay business model, but it seems like the automotive equivalent of going to a boardroom meeting in torn, stained jeans and a Slayer T-shirt.   It's not because it's a good idea, but seeing what they can get away with.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/14/21 10:34 a.m.

The fact that you don't like certain design decisions does not mean they're not an actual, well-established automaker, though. A lot of people - including both Ford and VW, as noted, are taking them seriously.

But whatever. I will stop turning this into a Tesla thread. Carry on with the Rivian. 

67LS1
67LS1 Reader
11/14/21 10:52 a.m.

Teslas employee #7 started a new company and is talking about new battery tech that will allow a battery to charge in 8 minutes and go 9000 (yup, 9000) miles on a charge and last for 2 million miles. 
Whether or not this works out, battery tech and charger tech (water cooled charging cords), etc, will make electric cars much more viable for the masses.

Currently, I could own one and it would be perfect for 95% of my driving but when I go on a trip I don't want to spend an hour or more charging. So,for my foreseeable future I'll have at least on ice vehicle.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
11/14/21 2:42 p.m.

Do the math on actual charging time, it is likely less than you think. If you're driving a typical modern EV car (not towing with a truck), you're not spending more than an hour charging unless you're going over 500 miles. 

High speed chargers already use water-cooled cables. 

This proposed battery sounds like one of the swapped solid proposals. 9000 miles of energy delivered in 8 minutes is an enormous surge of energy. That's about 60x the power delivered by the fastest chargers available today. 

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Dork
11/15/21 10:35 a.m.

Sounds like Aluminum-Air. It was the same battery type used on the Moon rover by NASA and has some potential, if people are okay with the limitations needed to keep corrosion off the cathodes.

I'm in the opinion that the Tesla network and charger is here to stay thanks to the Youtube Channel Ingineerix and their deep dives. In one video- The Tesla Charging I believe- he briefly discusses the differences between the Tesla charger and the CCS charger, and it turns out the CCS system is FAR more complicated than what Tesla made. Tesla's unit is only 5 total wires, with two main ones capable of handling either DC or AC charging with a single rotating ground and two for signal- CCS has over 11, and he says something along the lines of "There's a ton of protocols... very obvious it was made by committee" from their own back-engineering. Not shocking, but we also forget that the current CCS plug is really CCS2, and it has wholly separate portions for it's AC and DC capabilities and communication wires.

As for other OEMs using the Tesla plug, doing so will literally be other OEMs admitting Tesla has 'won' in some fashion-it would clearly show that they are an established manufacturer, and that'll be a massive win for them both in public zeitgeist and monetarily. Tesla has always been truly vying as an OEM energy supplier that makes cars, not a car manufacturer that makes solar and batteries as a consequence.

We know that Aptera is using Tesla parts right now, so we *might* see more appear. It's entirely possible that companies like Rivian are using CCS as needed contractual obligations to Ford and not because it's better in some way, a detail I only just considered.

californiamilleghia
californiamilleghia UltraDork
11/15/21 10:57 a.m.

Is this run going to have updates on youtube or ????

it would be interesting to follow how its going , 

There was a guy a few weeks ago on garage journal that did a 1000 mile plus Tesla run and had a thread on his trip and the good and bad , charging stations that were broken etc , 

Gave a real world idea of what it takes and it was not so bad :)

 

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