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Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 11:50 a.m.

I started this as a reply to octavious' thread but realized after all this text that my needs are different enough that I decided to start my own thread on it so I don't threadjack that one!

I just sold my E93 M3. I never bonded with it. I never really got to love it. I never thought it was super fun. It never became more than a transportation machine to me. I know the convertible is 500lbs or so heavier than a coupe or sedan, but it was also big and complicated and expensive and finicky. It was high-revving and not terribly fast down low and in order to get to where you're high enough in the powerband for it to really start screaming you're already in illegal speeds.

I also sold my Camaro. It was an '18 SS 1LE, which I loved aside from its bulk and visibility impacting its ability as a DD (try going through a tight and twisty drivethrough without scraping the splitter when you can't see any of the curbs!). It was also WAY too fast to be any fun. The only time I ever got to use full throttle is when I was already in 6th and was too lazy to downshift when I passed someone. On the track, it was also too fast to be fun. I'm at my best on the track when I'm dicing it up with someone and finding another car that fast with a driver at my level, you're playing in a space where the margin of error is sooooooo thin that it's stressful and uncomfortable. That being said, it was an absolute monster on the track. GM warrantied track stuff (I actually never had to use it, but they would) and it was 100% reliable. It never overheated or gave me any spot of trouble once I had my brake pad/fluid combo worked out.

So now I'm working on what do to next. All I have left right now are my Land Rover Discovery 2 and my little '01 2.7L Boxster. I bought the Boxster because I absolutely love them and I love playing with my local PCA. I'm doing autocross, concours, and rallye with this car and I'm enjoying it a whole lot. But I do not trust this car for track use. Like, not at all. I already blew up an M96 on track, spinning a rod bearing at Blackhawk. I've never had an IMS problem, and I think that problem is totally overblown. Most "IMS" issues that come up have a local shop just say, "Oh, it was your IMS and it's a boat anchor now," but don't tear it down to verify that that's actually what it was. These engines are pretty well-known for having oiling issues. They only have two oil pickups, one on each side, the baffles and sump aren't especially good for motorsport use... On my Carrera that I blew the motor up in, I had the 2qt LN Engineering baffled deep sump and pickup extension and the Porsche Motorsports air/oil separator... I still spun a rod bearing in it. I don't especially trust these motors and they are so expensive to replace that I really don't feel super comfortable tracking it. I thought about spending this car money on the Boxster and putting the oiling mods on this car plus an Accusump, maybe. I see some people do a billion track days in their Boxsters, and then some (including me) have destroyed motors doing them.

So, that leads me to my next decision. What do I get that I can beat on pretty regularly at the track all summer long, drive to work when I feel like it, and be able to trust it not to break or fall apart? During a decent year, I'll probably do 15-20 track days. I don't want anything too too powerful and I also don't want anything too too slow. I thought my 997 was right at the perfect power level at about 3100lbs and 325hp. I'm fine going a bit slower, but I don't want to go significantly faster. It's stressful and there aren't enough people to play with.

I don't fit very well in an NA or NB Miata with a helmet on. I haven't tried an NC with a helmet but at 5k they are real hard to find in decent shape. I also didn't super enjoy my last one. I just sold my last '96 Miata last year and I'm happy to be rid of it and not back in an early Miata.

With my mediocre experience with this last M3, I'm kinda off BMWs for a while. I've had a bunch of other M3s and they are always fairly competent but they don't bring out the love for me. I always get rid of them for something else.

I was thinking maybe a Mk4 or Mk5 GTI, an 8th gen Civic Si (sedan probably, I am in the roof of a coupe with a helmet on), maybe a cheapo NC Miata...

I thought about a Sentra SE-R Spec V but I keep hearing that they're unreliable and I can't have that.

I thought about an SRT4 Neon but I hear the same kinds of things about those. They eat hubs. They don't get enough negative camber to prevent them from devouring tires, that kind of thing.

Maybe an R53 MINI Cooper S.

I loved my 500 Abarth, but they're too expensive. 

I thought about an RSX Type S but people constantly complain about the rear suspension on those.

Porsche 944. It's old and slow. The slow isn't a concern, really, they are a whole lot of fun to drive, but they are old. I don't want to spend a ton of time and money restoring a car into trackable condition and then worry about the next thing breaking. I want something solid and reliable that is happy to go every time.

C4 Corvette. It's possible, but difficult, to find a manual coupe for around 5k. They're fast enough, for sure, but also getting old. Not fragile, though, and decent parts availability. They seem fairly robust on the track.

Is there anything I'm missing or forgetting about? 

Indy-Guy
Indy-Guy PowerDork
8/26/19 12:04 p.m.

Ok, this is going to be one out of left field, but how about a Jaguar XJR.

I know you used to own one (that you sold to Robbie) so you know what they're like to drive.  After seeing the car in Robbie's driveway a few years ago, I went and bought one for myself.  I love it.  Powerful engine that delivers the power with a very flat torque curve, so it Feels fast, without waiting for the revs to build.  And it can handle daily use too.

 

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
8/26/19 12:05 p.m.

Mustang. You can hit that same 3100lbs/325 hp, parts are available and cheap-ish. At stock power levels you should have fun and the car would be reliable as a brick. 

Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 12:06 p.m.

In reply to Indy-Guy :

I really hate to yeah-but a good response... but... :)

It's an auto and it weighs two tons! I can't imagine, even after having that car for a few years, that it would be fun on the track or stand up to track use as often as I would do it. The brakes are too small, the parts are too expensive, and did I mention that it's an auto and it's very heavy? :)

I don't think it meets my trackability and reliability requirements.

Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 12:10 p.m.

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

I had thought of another Mustang. I've had a bunch of 'em. A couple of Fox bodies, some SN95s... The SN95s have a very annoying shifter that I have to move my arm all weird for and I hate the position of the seatbelts. And don't they need a bunch of stuff like suspension work and subframe connectors to be track-ready? I autocrossed some of my old Mustangs but I never actually did track days in any of them. I think I never felt like any of them were really set up for it very well as they came. S197 Mustangs are too expensive around here. Manual GTs start around 7-8k for old high mileage ones.

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
8/26/19 12:12 p.m.

Part of the question is whether you want to turn wrenches/modify to get where you want to be. Do you want to drive it to the track? Different cars excel in different ways. 

Sonic
Sonic UltraDork
8/26/19 12:17 p.m.

For $5k I think you are on the right track with an 8th gen Si or an NC.  If you can go up to $10k then s2000s are available and meet your criteria well. 

Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 12:19 p.m.

Drive to the track, drive home, drive to work the next day. No trailer.

Let's say that priorities can't be a tie.

Priority 1 is starting price of $5,000 or less.

Priority 2 and close enough that it might be a tie is that it is as close to track ready as-is and is as absolutely reliable as any car that's tracked that often can be. I want to pull in from the pits, maybe check the tire pressures, I suppose check the oil level, and then get back in the car for my next run session and drive it 10/10ths for 25 minutes, and repeat, then drive it home, maybe change wheels and brake pads, and drive it to work the next day. I guess I'm okay with making a few modifications, like if my budget extended to a BRZ, adding an oil cooler is cheap and easy and that would be fine. Adding subframe connectors, replacing a rear axle, anything that involves a welder or non-standard garage tools... That kind of thing will DQ a car.

Priority 3 and also close enough that it might be a tie is that I must fit comfortably in it with a helmet on.

Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 12:20 p.m.
Sonic said:

For $5k I think you are on the right track with an 8th gen Si or an NC.  If you can go up to $10k then s2000s are available and meet your criteria well. 

I know I don't fit in an S2000 with a helmet on. My head crashes right into the cross-bar on the top.

PMRacing
PMRacing GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
8/26/19 12:22 p.m.

Honda S2000? 

Mazda RX8 R3 (maintenance heavy, though)

Viper coupe?

 

Just off the top of my head excluding Porsches and BMWs. 

EDIT: you posted no S2k while I was typing.  Also missed less than $5k price...

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
8/26/19 12:23 p.m.

Nissan 350Z/370Z.  Get a 350Z track and you will have ~3150lb/300HP.  They are deceptively fast at trackdays and have good brakes stock.  Other then the weak Viscous rear diff they are capable stock and the aftermarket is huge.  Interior space is good, tires are typical modern car sizes.  

I'm selling my 2006 350Z track in Champaign Il if you'd be interested.  

Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 12:26 p.m.

Looking for Mustangs right now. There are no 2005+ cars in my area in my budget. There's a couple New Edge cars but they look real ratty.

https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/cto/d/huntley-2002-ford-mustang-gt/6957867246.html I don't like the look of that bumper.

https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/cto/d/chicago-mustang/6956987552.html looks like it might be all right but it's right at the budget. It would have to be ready to go as-is.

https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/cto/d/chicago-03-ford-mustang/6954878036.html is full of rust.

https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/cto/d/chicago-ford-mustang-50-89/6950748725.html might do... Something about it from the ad and pictures doesn't feel good to me.

This one might be okay. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/509123189852705/

This one might be good, too https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/946974148988624/

 

Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 12:30 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

I always thought the 350Z was a good messing around car but not a great all the way car. I looked at buying one a few times, didn't super like how they felt or how it felt like I was in a pendulum all the way at the back. And I never felt like the brakes were at all good. And I can't find one in budget. I'm willing to give it a try - my recollection was that it wasn't brilliant, though. Do you have more info on yours? I have no problem coming down to Champaign to pick up a good car.

Someone else mentioned an RX8. I wanted one since they came out. Every time I've driven one i've had an absolute blast. It's the reliability that scares me out of those. It's not a flog it and take it for granted kind of a car. :-/

And I'm sorry, I'm sorry, it does feel like I'm yeah-butting all of these great and thoughtful replies! I have a great big list that I've been keeping including all of the interesting cars I could think of, and I had already minused some of the ones that are being mentioned. I didn't post up anywhere close to the whole list.

Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 12:34 p.m.

I thought a turbo Cobalt SS could be good, too, but they're out of budget. How are the supercharged Cobalt SSs?

Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 12:46 p.m.

@nocones I just tried emailing you through the board but it bounced. I'd like to hear more about your 350Z, please!

kevinatfms
kevinatfms GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/26/19 12:50 p.m.

Focus ST from 2005-2006 would be a hoot. Its a 2.3L Mazda motor with a 5 speed in a suspension/brakes lifted from the SVT Focus. Highly capable and yet no one knows about them. Engine is dead nuts reliable, trans is beefy and i believe Mfactory offers a limited slip diff for it. I believe the exhaust was also made by Borla and it had a nice little note to it. FSwerks still has a FULL catalog for the car with a turbo kit as an option...

Other choices:
Camaro SS
Mustang GT
Sentra SE-R V Spec(has LSD)
Civic Si
Mazdaspeed Protege
SVT Focus
Fiesta SE w/ 5 speed
Beetle Turbo S(dont knock it till you try it)

Nugi
Nugi Reader
8/26/19 12:51 p.m.

Fwd:

3k civic with mods. But not a new si, an old 1988-2000 when they still had proper double wishbone. Engine swaps are easy and cheap, as are all other parts. They are stupid simple, reliable, and still easy to find parts for. Find one with a B/H/F/K swap already done for easy-button. B-trans can swap gears for custom ratios, k-series can often add a 6th, lsd are available, axles are cheap. Lots of upgrades and swaps from integra, crv and other civics. 

Rwd:

Normally, id say s2000, miata, maybe even 240sx (if you can find one). RX-7/8s are wonderful, but suffer from the spinning dorrito curse of bad seals. Maybe an rx8 with a swap? I would start with what your engine and suspension options are and work backward. Maybe cruise racingjunk for ideas. Mustangs sound good for the price, but I am not very familiar with them. 

slowbird
slowbird Reader
8/26/19 12:56 p.m.

I'll +1 the 2005 Focus ST suggestion. (With the caveat that right now mine's broken. Alternator. Ugh.)

Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 12:58 p.m.
kevinatfms said:

Focus ST from 2005-2006 would be a hoot. Its a 2.3L Mazda motor with a 5 speed in a suspension/brakes lifted from the SVT Focus. Highly capable and yet no one knows about them. Engine is dead nuts reliable, trans is beefy and i believe Mfactory offers a limited slip diff for it. I believe the exhaust was also made by Borla and it had a nice little note to it. FSwerks still has a FULL catalog for the car with a turbo kit as an option...

Other choices:
Camaro SS
Mustang GT
Sentra SE-R V Spec(has LSD)
Civic Si
Mazdaspeed Protege
SVT Focus
Fiesta SE w/ 5 speed
Beetle Turbo S(dont knock it till you try it)

There are some cars on this list I'd like to talk about!

Let's talk more about the Spec V. There are a few of them in my price range that look pretty nice, but I keep hearing horror stories about how unreliable they are and how you should just go for a 5 speed SE instead. I would love to hear more about this.

I'm open to a Focus SVT. The Fiesta is probably out, though. My Fiesta just destroyed my back - I couldn't drive it for more than about 40 minutes without my back going into complete agony, and it was worse than miserable on the track. I left Road America after two sessions, the Fiesta ST was so miserable to drive on the track.

I'm into the Beetle Turbo S! I love a car nobody expects to be fast :) I have been looking for GTIs, and I know the Beetle isn't far off from that. I had considered Audi TTs, too, but there are only not very nice ones in my budget right now. Give me some more info about these Beetle Turbo Ss.

I'm open to the Protege, too. They are pretty tough to find around here, though. I haven't seen any nice ones at all.

kevinatfms
kevinatfms GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/26/19 1:15 p.m.

One more that is a total sleeper is the last generator Celica GT-S. 2ZZ-FE equipped! Lack of torque can upset people though during street duty.

I will say when you wring a 2zz out it is absolutely glorious.

Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 1:19 p.m.

This is another car I was thinking about but haven't been able to find! I recall that this was listed as a good alternative to an Integra GSR. Are they pretty solid on track, or will they suffer the same kind of fate as GRM's Corolla? I know the Elise uses basically this same engine and they run all day long.

kevinatfms
kevinatfms GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/26/19 1:24 p.m.
Lugnut said:
kevinatfms said:

Focus ST from 2005-2006 would be a hoot. Its a 2.3L Mazda motor with a 5 speed in a suspension/brakes lifted from the SVT Focus. Highly capable and yet no one knows about them. Engine is dead nuts reliable, trans is beefy and i believe Mfactory offers a limited slip diff for it. I believe the exhaust was also made by Borla and it had a nice little note to it. FSwerks still has a FULL catalog for the car with a turbo kit as an option...

Other choices:
Camaro SS
Mustang GT
Sentra SE-R V Spec(has LSD)
Civic Si
Mazdaspeed Protege
SVT Focus
Fiesta SE w/ 5 speed
Beetle Turbo S(dont knock it till you try it)

There are some cars on this list I'd like to talk about!

Let's talk more about the Spec V. There are a few of them in my price range that look pretty nice, but I keep hearing horror stories about how unreliable they are and how you should just go for a 5 speed SE instead. I would love to hear more about this.

I'm open to a Focus SVT. The Fiesta is probably out, though. My Fiesta just destroyed my back - I couldn't drive it for more than about 40 minutes without my back going into complete agony, and it was worse than miserable on the track. I left Road America after two sessions, the Fiesta ST was so miserable to drive on the track.

I'm into the Beetle Turbo S! I love a car nobody expects to be fast :) I have been looking for GTIs, and I know the Beetle isn't far off from that. I had considered Audi TTs, too, but there are only not very nice ones in my budget right now. Give me some more info about these Beetle Turbo Ss.

I'm open to the Protege, too. They are pretty tough to find around here, though. I haven't seen any nice ones at all.

Focus SVT - Capable car, only gripe at this point would be parts avaiability. I have heard a few parts like the rear calipers are discontinued. So id search parts that will be required to be replaced frequently or upgraded if the time arises.

Beetle Turbo S - Made them for only a few years, 1.8T, 6 speed and a cool little rear wing that comes up at 60+mph. They are a GTI with a harder to access engine bay so be a little wary about that. Keep the engine somewhat stock and it will run all day long.

Sentra SE-R Spec-V - The Spec-V models had an LSD stock which is a HUGE bargain. The engines occasionally grenade themselves but i believe it was due to the OE catalytic converter clogging. Swap in a header when you get it and they are supposed to be dead reliabile.

Mazdaspeed Protege are definitely harder to find but offer Mazda's support if you need parts.

I still think a 2005-2006 Focus ZX4 ST is your car. 150hp/150tq but the thing only weighs 2500lbs. They are a cross between Ford's best after SVT mixed with Mazda heart and a dose of new age Ford Performance before they were a thing. So parts are available from multiple models and upgrades can come from multiple models(Fiesta ST brakes i have heard will fit...).

Id grab one for $2500(they usually come up right around there with 100k miles on them). Do fluids, pads/rotors, tires and some Konis then track it. Before i settled on my 2002 Elantra for Chump Car we were looking for the 2005 ZX4 ST cars or an SVT Focus to campaign. If i ever sell the Hyundai, i will buy a ZX4 ST for a track car.

kevinatfms
kevinatfms GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/26/19 1:25 p.m.

Little article on the ZX4 ST by C&D.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a15132429/2005-ford-focus-zx4-st-short-take-road-test/

And differential by MFactory. It has the same 5 speed as the outgoing Focus manual models with revised ratios.

https://ostarmotorsports.com/Store/Product/Helical-LSD-Ford-Focus-MTX-75
 

Lugnut
Lugnut Dork
8/26/19 2:04 p.m.
kevinatfms said:
Sentra SE-R Spec-V - The Spec-V models had an LSD stock which is a HUGE bargain. The engines occasionally grenade themselves but i believe it was due to the OE catalytic converter clogging. Swap in a header when you get it and they are supposed to be dead reliabile.

Can we verify this? I'm actually super interested in the Spec V. I think they're really cool and I might enjoy trying one for a while. The reliability concerns were the only thing that put this car on the No list.

I'll consider the Focus, too. I dig the SVT and that ST might be fun, too, but I admit I'm more interested in the little Sentra.

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
8/26/19 2:05 p.m.

In reply to Lugnut :

nocones_625 at Yahoo is the email.

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