Complete sidebar here.
What is the definition of a build?
Wheels and tires? Exhaust? Stereo? Suspension? Stickers?
What about a 100% stock 1967 Pontiac Catalina with 45k miles that you have to pull out of a garage where it has sat since 1978?
I think that whatever your personal expression of automotive perfection is, it is YOUR build.
In reply to QuasiMofo (John Brown) :
Good question about what constitutes a "build."
I get a lot of compliments on the Porsche 911 but, really, in the world of Porsches it's not that rare or trick. But it wears a cool color and has the right stance–credit the slight lowering plus Turbo wheels and wider tires, I guess. And maybe the duck tail. It's not a long-hood, it's not a Singer, it's not a Turbo.
Maybe it's like pornography in that you know it when you see it?
But, yeah, good question for the group.
thatsnowinnebago said:I intentionally bought a built DRZ400 when I was bike shopping because I wanted to make sure I'd spend more time riding it than wrenching on it. My goal is to be a better rider (and to have a blast on a big loud toy) and that takes seat time instead of garage time.
All of this; I bought my e82 and haven't touched it. It was the car I wanted for cruising and autocross but I don't want to be working on it at all. Honestly I suck at working on cars, I never make enough time to make it happen so I understand bought not built perfectly well. I can fix whatever; have restored a couple cars, have built some successful race cars but I don't really have the desire anymore.
All very interesting BUT where are the CAR GALS? Do they have an opinion ? Where are the Shift-Up-Now gals. Is it ok that they can handle a wrench? Or are they only allowed to buy something and drive it let alone race it!
Just asking! I wish my girls would show an interest but all they like to do is watch and push a broom to clean up after me. Calling all girls/women!
I've done both. Im ultimately bored very quickly with anything bought. Im a builder. I had a nicely restored classic and I hated going to shows because inevitably the discussion comes around to "what did you do" and wrote a check is a boring assed answer. So I still buy for things that I have an interest in driving but for my hobby side of life my hobby is building so I always buy with the intent to do more than gas and go. Everyone is different, there's no right or wrong, just different approaches. We all think we have the same hobby because we are "car guys/gals" but the reality is there are many different hobbies under the label of automotive enthusiast.
In reply to JThw8 :
I get that from the opposite perspective: I build some things, but I would much much rather just get in a car and drive it and have it be OEM-grade reliable and OEM-grade comfortable in the NVH region and OEM-grade in the "turn the key and go" sense, no need to remember to flip this switch or not let this gauge go over X or make sure to blip the throttle at lights so the plugs don't foul and so forth.
Hell, it annoys me that my Volvo has an aftermarket headunit in it, not an OEM one 
And someone decided to attach a giant amplifier to half the rear seatback so that you can't fold the seats down to haul stuff.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
I think we're on the same page. From a DD perspective give me all the OEM reliability and comforts that come with a newer bought car. Heck when I was trying to find an "interesting" truck last year everyone kept suggesting how I could make it interesting. Nice thought but for my DD I dont want to do projects. But for my hobby cars I'll build, because that is my hobby, building.
It depends on what you are looking for. For a daily driver? Just buy something and be done with it. For me owning a car I didn't build at least partially makes it so I never have any actual connection with the car and don't truly care about it. I have nothing invested.
On the other hand when I build a car I can always say, yes, I did that...its pride coming from hard work...imposing your will on the world in such a way that reality changes to match your imagination through hard work. Even if you aren't building an entire car, just some like piece. Its why I have a lot more fun fabricating than I do bolting on some parts...no matter how nice the parts that I am bolting on are.
So yes, for me...built is always better than bought. It may not be the same for other people...but in my mind the lowliest rat-rod at a car show is always superior to the costliest exotic...its just how it is.
JThw8 said:I've done both. Im ultimately bored very quickly with anything bought. Im a builder. I had a nicely restored classic and I hated going to shows because inevitably the discussion comes around to "what did you do" and wrote a check is a boring assed answer. So I still buy for things that I have an interest in driving but for my hobby side of life my hobby is building so I always buy with the intent to do more than gas and go. Everyone is different, there's no right or wrong, just different approaches. We all think we have the same hobby because we are "car guys/gals" but the reality is there are many different hobbies under the label of automotive enthusiast.
I think this might be why I got bored with the NC I bought from Jeremy so quickly.
When I first bought it I was like, "Yes, everything is done and I don't have to mess with it." But it was so well sorted, the most I did was have local mechanic replace the coolant tank with the aluminum piece from FM.
f1carguy said:All very interesting BUT where are the CAR GALS? Do they have an opinion ? Where are the Shift-Up-Now gals. Is it ok that they can handle a wrench? Or are they only allowed to buy something and drive it let alone race it!
Just asking! I wish my girls would show an interest but all they like to do is watch and push a broom to clean up after me. Calling all girls/women!
While it's wrong to generalize most girls/ women are herd people and tend to follow the group. Cars are transportation modules. To that group. Only the color matters.
The exceptions are extraordinary people and I've always found them interesting and strong personalities.
OK I'm a bigot.
My daily driver gets properly serviced. Washed when the weather promises to be clear for a few days or the salt builds up too much in the winter.
The hobby car gets all my attention. Every spare dollar goes into it all my spare time. When I can I try to figure out my next moves. Path to take.
It's stored inside and often has a car cover over it. Once finished it's the one that gets the hand wax job. Where a whole weekend is spend detailing it, prepping it for its next outing.
Spare parts are lovingly collected, stored, organized and reorganized.
Aren't all cars built and bought? Aren't the only exceptions stolen cars and kits that haven't been put together yet? If somebody brings an unfinished, stolen Caterham to a car show, I'm voting them best of show.
Both certainly have their merits, but I fee like you judge things differently based on which path was chosen.
If it is a "bought" - I have more appreciation for taste and uniqueness.
If it is "built" - I usually have more appreciation based on craftsmanship and the final product.
frenchyd said:GaryC83 said:irish44j (Forum Supporter) said:z31maniac said:mr2peak said:Built shows understanding, it shows you are a car guy (or girl) at heart and you understand your machine.
Bought... anyone can buy a cool car.
It's about that distinction, if you know, you know.I've done multiple engine swaps. Including an OBD-1 S52 into an E30 in a gravel driveway. Suspension, BBKs, etc. Nowadays I'd rather just buy something that's quick, capable and has a warranty.
So am I no longer a "car guy" because I don't enjoy spending all my free time in the garage?
Doesn't mean that at all. There's nothing wrong with buying a nice/fast car. But if you're talking to me over a beer, you can tell me about that e30 and I'll want to hear about it and actually care. But if talk to me about the M3 you just bought new, I'll listen politely and not really care ;)
Whether or not you are a "car guy" isn't about whether you bought a new car. Plenty of car guys buy new cars (including myself). But just buying an exotic/fast car by itself doesn't make one a "car guy" I wouldn't say. Any more than simply buying a new Land Cruiser inherently makes one an "overlander" or "off-road enthusiast."
"Car guy" comes down to your knowledge, skills, etc regarding cars. So, you're a car guy because you have those things, even if you drive a Prius to work, or if you buy a new C8.
I'll disagree with the skills aspect. And I make my living off building coach built cars for other folks. You don't need the skills to be a car guy.
Some of the biggest car guys I know couldn't fabricate a set of engine mounts to save their own life. Nor do they need to. But they know all the nuance details of the Marques they are passionate about. And have all sorts of extremely detailed well thought out plans for future builds laid out. They have the bankroll to build them, but not necessarily the talent. Doesn't make them any more or any less of a car guy.
In fact, I *hate* when people gate keep like that. Absolutely 100% can't stand or tolerate it.
What I also find to be just as bad is people claiming to have done the work themselves, when it was either shop done, done by a friend, whatever. There's no harm in admitting its past your skill set. But don't go taking credit for stuff you didn't do.
And I also can't stand the crap fabricators on fan YouTube, motor tend, etc. It's bullE36 M3 work. Don't pass it off as quality and go around talking about your E36 M3 like it's the best there is, when it's positively junk.
Anyway. The beautiful part of about the car hobby is there is something in it for every one. Regardless of whether or not you can build a car from the ground up...starting from flat sheets of steel / alloy stock. Or can't even bolt on basic upgrades. Doesn't make a lick of difference, in my book, as long as you're genuinely passionate about whatever tickles your fancy. From Ferraris to Geo Metros. Doesn't matter
Gary, I understand what you are saying. But just because you read a book doesn't make you a published author
And even if you are a published author it's different if you self publish. Then there is the difference between a self published author who writes something that is good and someone who self publishes who writes junk.
I'm a greasy hand car guy. There are plenty like me who it's just a job and don't care. And those who are passionate about cars. The guys who care, are passionate. That's who I want to chat with.
There is a difference between those who are passionate because they understand and appreciate cars or those who can just spout "facts"I want to be inclusive. Our hobby needs new members, included members. There isn't a test to pass to be worthy. But some just aren't. Listening to them long enough and you'll hear them recite chapter and verse of some book. Yet can't hear the difference between a Jaguar XKE and a Ford model A. Both are fine worthy cars but serve a completely different purpose.
I understand about those who lack the skill or talent and need to hire it. Or they lack the time or the other things needed. I also understand poseurs. The latter I have no time for.
As to wealth? It would be nice to be wealthy, but I want to be creative and ambitious. I've met trust fund babies who do wonderful creative things. And the other kind.
Completing a project takes way more effort than buying something. How many people here have half finished projects, or had to part out a project? How many of you have completed your vision, stuck with it all the way. Found (bought) the parts, did the mental game to figure it out, and then put in the sweat equity?
I'm not saying it's better. I'm saying Built not Bought is an accomplishment that should be recognized
4 pages of this? Seriously?
Both are car people that are pushing the general agenda of using vehicles as a hobby. How it matters who made the vehicle is beyond me. It's as if the DIY telescope builders look down on the buyers, when the real end goal is to look out at the night sky. Or the people who spend $30,000 on a scope looking down on someone spending $500 on lenses for their DIY scope.
The only reason this "matters" is because people have some kind of self image problem and they need to make themselves feel better by pretending they are better than the other car enthusiast.
I know this board is very much on the DIY part of the hobby- which is awesome! And that culminates with the Challenge (and the low buck racing that has actually spawned from that event). For all of the people who participate in that event, and look down on the buyers- how many of you drove your own car at the event? The irony of using the "pro" driver is thick for this discussion.
It's just as awesome that the guy in the next neighborhood made a low rider from a cheap cast off (could have even been a former cop car, and thanks for the story, Dave) as it is that Porsche sells a race ready car that you just get in and drive.
If you really look down on someone else's effort, maybe you should ask yourself why.
alfadriver said:4 pages of this? Seriously?
Both are car people that are pushing the general agenda of using vehicles as a hobby. How it matters who made the vehicle is beyond me. It's as if the DIY telescope builders look down on the buyers, when the real end goal is to look out at the night sky. Or the people who spend $30,000 on a scope looking down on someone spending $500 on lenses for their DIY scope.
The only reason this "matters" is because people have some kind of self image problem and they need to make themselves feel better by pretending they are better than the other car enthusiast.
I know this board is very much on the DIY part of the hobby- which is awesome! And that culminates with the Challenge (and the low buck racing that has actually spawned from that event). For all of the people who participate in that event, and look down on the buyers- how many of you drove your own car at the event? The irony of using the "pro" driver is thick for this discussion.
It's just as awesome that the guy in the next neighborhood made a low rider from a cheap cast off (could have even been a former cop car, and thanks for the story, Dave) as it is that Porsche sells a race ready car that you just get in and drive.
If you really look down on someone else's effort, maybe you should ask yourself why.
This^^. Ironically, this board had a lot to do with my recognition that car people who like cars regardless of the car or what they like about it. It was a revelation to me that there are people who genuinely like low cost front wheel drive cars. For most of my life I assumed that's what you drove if you couldn't afford a real car. I was wrong.
As far as the "I wouldn't want to sit down with that person and have a beer with them" test is concerned that's more of a metric of the types of people you like to hang out with than a determination of their car guyishness. I spent 5 minutes with a famous hot rod builder once and had no desire spend another with him. There was no question he was a car guy but he was also an misogynistic, condescending ahole and I think life's to short to waste time with people like that no mater how much they know about cars.
alfadriver said:4 pages of this? Seriously?
Both are car people that are pushing the general agenda of using vehicles as a hobby. How it matters who made the vehicle is beyond me. It's as if the DIY telescope builders look down on the buyers, when the real end goal is to look out at the night sky. Or the people who spend $30,000 on a scope looking down on someone spending $500 on lenses for their DIY scope.
The only reason this "matters" is because people have some kind of self image problem and they need to make themselves feel better by pretending they are better than the other car enthusiast.
I know this board is very much on the DIY part of the hobby- which is awesome! And that culminates with the Challenge (and the low buck racing that has actually spawned from that event). For all of the people who participate in that event, and look down on the buyers- how many of you drove your own car at the event? The irony of using the "pro" driver is thick for this discussion.
It's just as awesome that the guy in the next neighborhood made a low rider from a cheap cast off (could have even been a former cop car, and thanks for the story, Dave) as it is that Porsche sells a race ready car that you just get in and drive.
If you really look down on someone else's effort, maybe you should ask yourself why.
Only 4 pages so far?
It's not about looking down on any persons efforts. At least not in my view. It's justifying your own efforts. Taking a car that is almost trash ( or trash) and turning it into something noteworthy really doesn't make sense.
That much work, creativity, and sacrifice. Would be far better rewarded economically in your profession , career, or Job.
It's often time away from your family, fortunate are the few who's family is involved.
It's not just cars though. Artists, musicians, creative people of all interests do the same thing. There art critic's approve or condemn their accomplishments for the Neophytes without the judgement or taste of their own. Some of those same critics cannot paint, draw, sculpt, play an instrument, write, or build a car themselves.
It's just the nature of people.
ps. The use of pro- drivers at the challenge is just a way to level the field. Someone who spends hundreds, even a 1000 or more hours of his spare time won't have time to sharpen his driving skills enough to be competitive.
Th Challenge is about judging the car, not the drivers skill.
In reply to frenchyd :
I know it's about judging the car, but one massive part of this magazine is about people autocrossing. So putting creating a car on such a high pedestal only to having a pay driver run it makes it pretty ironic that build vs buy is such a discussion.
That being said, it's possible to build your own car and drive it competitively at the event, too.
In reply to alfadriver :
I hope not just autocrossing. I thought it was about all motor sports! Now I've entered a few car shows but just cleaned up the race car. Didn't line up the screw heads etc. I've entered one drag race, one autocross, somewhere around 300 wheel to wheel races.
Obviously I can drive an autocross but I've got to believe that experience will improve times significantly. Same with drag racing.
Out of curiosity what do the pro racers charge to drive?
In reply to frenchyd :
You are missing my point.
BTW, you do know that GRM started it's life as Auto-X, right?
In reply to alfadriver :
Yes I am aware of that as it's original focus. But they do cater to us Wheel to wheelers as well.
Besides I've always been a grass roots kinda racer. My entry level used to be $300 but I'm all the way up to $500 now.
I would be anti- bought. Except somebody has to buy those cars and take the depreciation hit before they get to my interest point. If I want that to happen I have to be nice to them.
Jay Leno has a story about an exclusive car show. Monterey or something. The judge told the owner his clock didn't work. The owner screamed for the mechanic, when all he needed to do was wind the clock.
To me, built vs bought means the builder knows his car, and has the knowledge to work on it. The buyer does not have this ability.
Jay Leno buys most of his auto collection and the restorations that make them what they are. Mostly by paying the best restoration techs and mechanics he can find. But he still knows what they're doing, and often is very involved.
Jay Leno is the epitome of built, not bought. As is most of the GRM base. Whether we buy a prepped race motor or buy a rebuilt brake caliper. For most of us, buying something someone else built is the best use of our time and money. Doesn't mean we're elitist and unable.
Someone drop Leno a line and see what he has to say about it. It would be interesting to get his view!
In reply to alfadriver :
I understand the irony you speak of.
The hired pro, also gives you an indication of your relative skill level. I assume the owner also asks the pro driver about input to improve the cars handling.
So in a very real way the magazine is helping strengthen the base they cater to.
Just as a side issue, I remember a car that raced on its bump stops and seemed to do very well. Rather than attempting expensive springs, swaybars, and shocks. Isn't that the cheapest, lightest, approach? Couldn't we use simple straight axles with bump stops holding geometry in the optimum position? Almost turn every car into a big go-cart?
The best tool in my "toolbox" is my wallet. I'm not ashamed to admit it and too old to give a E36 M3 if anyone thinks badly of it. I've never been a talented wrench right from the get-go. I tried to learn and in fact did wind up learning enough so that I could do my own basic stuff. However, I no longer have the time nor desire to do it. My life is hella busy, and I'm sure most others here can empathize with that. I get very little "me" time. Hmmm...spend $25 at Autozone buying oil and a filter, then crawl under the car on my back and all that jazz vs. spending $30 at the local shop I know and trust? No brainer for me (I'm picking the shop). I could argue that I've worked just as hard for my cars as someone who built them. I just did most of my work behind a keyboard or in an office. I've worked long and very hard in my career to get to a point where I can afford to do the things I do. Would I ever in a million years be one of those show and shine Ferrari guys? berkeley no, that's not my nature. But will I buy a well sorted car that someone else built and have just as much fun and pride driving it? Hell yes.
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