Hey, guys, isn't a Corvette just a fancy Corvette, by the bs logic floating around here.
Hey, guys, isn't a Corvette just a fancy Corvette, by the bs logic floating around here.
markwemple said:In reply to Driven5 :
Um, no, just no. Not even close. The 944 is much closer to the SB than any 911 is.
So the 911 with its rear mounted drivetrain, trailing arm rear suspension and strut based front suspension, styling closer to WWII than Vietnam is somehow LESS like a Super Beetle, which has all of those things than a 944 which has its engine in the front and much more modern styling?
oh and some 911 are even air cooled.
You’re allowed to your opinions, but I must say I disagree with pretty much all of them on this subject.
yup
In reply to Stefan :
The 944 shares many components with the SB. The 911 shares none. So the 944 must be related to every front engine rear trans by your logic. Right?
Just remember, I love bugs, so the comparison isn't derogatory to me. Just incorrect.
For more of this argument....an interesting old-school read:
I remember that article. I actually have a copy somewhere. More often was the comparison of the national 911 and 951. The numbers were so close. Funny thing is the profit margin was much higher on the 911. 944snever really made money for them.
rustybugkiller said:It wasn’t too long ago that this conversation was had with the 914 when the 944 was new.
NARP is the expression, I believe. I like to wear my tie dye VW shirt driving a P car, because of the people it infuriates.
Not
A
Real
Porsche
Which is the better car 944 or 911? Well, to tell you the truth, I am a bit torn on that one myself. I learned to drive in a VW Superbeetle convertible, and drove it for 20 years. I very nearly got a 944 when I got my Miata. Seems to me you need to ask yourself a few questions.
How important is good air conditioning to you? This is a ding on the notoriously mediocre air conditioning the 911 was saddled with. How much do you care about what other people think? See NARP above. What are the chances you need to help somebody move? 944 wins that hands down if the answer is fair to middlin' you need to toss a few boxes in the back. Are you willing to learn how to change a timing belt? Ding for the 944 with this one. I guess you could pay for it done, but it is really not that hard, and the doodad you need to do it is not that expensive. Sort of a high frequency operation, on an interference motor, clutches a bit of a PITA, particularly on the turbo flavored ones, OEM ones are sort of like timing belts on the how often do you have to do something for the privilege of driving it. 911 you do the oil changes and valve adjustments like you are supposed to, it will be running long after you are worm food. As a daily driver, no doubt the 944 would be a better car, cavernous storage area, modern air conditioning, about as balanced a car as you will ever drive, still has PORSCHE brakes, if you know what I mean. Flush the brake fluid and hit the track it will make you look like a hero, even on the stock pads. An extremely competent chassis, relatively easy to drive. Oddly enough, the rear suspension off a 944 will bolt right on to a Superbeetle. Early 944 and 924 did not have very nice interiors, more VW/Audi, especially the dash. Inside a later 944 is pretty sweet place to be, because they made it more like a 911. The sounds and smells you get with the 911 are more visceral, it sings to me. Dry sump motor, which is typically seen in a race car. Steering feel is almost telepathic in a 911, panoramic view out the front. Braking in the 911 is astonishing, thanks to rear weight bias, traction coming out of corning is also relentless. This has a dark side though, it can bite you hard for imprudent application of the accelerator pedal. SNAP throttle off oversteer. Nice panoramic view out the windshield is best used for where you are going, not where you have been. Supersized rear wheels and tires tamed this some over the run, but it always remained.
Which is a better car? It depends on what is important to you. I would almost certainly go for a decent air cooled 911 over a 944, more an emotional decision I guess.
Good lord, look at the ghetto antenna
Slippery said:Am I the only one that hates these posts that look like pure click bait? ... just a little blurb to drive people to their youtube channel ...
There was a video?
Well put Toebra. Funny thing is, only the 914 really has that NARP issue as it was a VW/Porsche in Europe. Unless we're talking about SUVs or sedans
When the 911 came out it was, what you talkin' bout Ferdinand? Thought it was a pig, 6 cylinders, proper PORSCHE has 4 pot out back, maybe with extra camshafts. 924/944 were ragged on by the faithful, purchased by the masses and saved the company. Being Germans and knowing the air cooled jewel in the rear could do astounding things, but passing smog was not one of them, they committee themselves to the idea of replacing the halo car with a V-8 supercar. Last bit, with all due respect to the splendiforousness that is the 928 GTS, not so much. Though they are water cooled now, the 911 soldiers on.
Today, buying new, I would get the most stripped down Cayman I could, roll up windows even, if possible, put more brakes on the front, a jungle gym in the back and track it mercilessly like I stole it from my ex-wife.
Toebra said:When the 911 came out it was, what you talkin' bout Ferdinand? Thought it was a pig, 6 cylinders, proper PORSCHE has 4 pot out back, maybe with extra camshafts. 924/944 were ragged on by the faithful, purchased by the masses and saved the company. Being Germans and knowing the air cooled jewel in the rear could do astounding things, but passing smog was not one of them, they committee themselves to the idea of replacing the halo car with a V-8 supercar. Last bit, with all due respect to the splendiforousness that is the 928 GTS, not so much. Though they are water cooled now, the 911 soldiers on.
Today, buying new, I would get the most stripped down Cayman I could, roll up windows even, if possible, put more brakes on the front, a jungle gym in the back and track it mercilessly like I stole it from my ex-wife.
What I read you typing is that most Porsche buyers share a lot with Harely riders. It's more about tradition than a better answer to the question.
In reply to alfadriver :
...And Ford buyers, and Chevy buyers, and Dodge buyers, and Jeep buyers, and Toytoa buyers, and Honda buyers, and Subaru buyers, and Audi buyers, and BMW buyers, and Alfa Romeo buyers, and Land Rover buyers, and Aston Martin buyers, and Ferrari buyers, and Lamborghini buyers, and Swiss Army knife buyers, and Nike buyers, and iPhone buyers, and Rolex buyers, and Glock buyers, and so on and so forth.
In reply to Driven5 :
Not to that extent. And for many of your listed models, there have been some significant changes made over time, where the 911 was largely the same car up until the water cooled addition.
Plus, most of those brands introduced alternatives that were either equal or better, and they were accepted in the market, whereas the 928 was more shunned.
alfadriver said:
Plus, most of those brands introduced alternatives that were either equal or better, and they were accepted in the market, whereas the 928 was more shunned.
Other than the slippery-Pacer styling and a finicky motor, the 928s biggest knock would seem to be that it was about 25 years ahead of its time.
alfadriver said:In reply to Driven5 :
Not to that extent. And for many of your listed models, there have been some significant changes made over time, where the 911 was largely the same car up until the water cooled addition.
Plus, most of those brands introduced alternatives that were either equal or better, and they were accepted in the market, whereas the 928 was more shunned.
Porschephiles are an odd bunch. I think even the old 912 and 912E is shunned as not being a real porsche. I can't think of any other car maker who has such toxic fans. Ferrari can release sports cars, 4 door cars, and even an SUV. Same with Alfa, Lamborghini, and Lotus (minus the SUV) and their fans do not wail and gnash their teeth
mad_machine said:alfadriver said:In reply to Driven5 :
Not to that extent. And for many of your listed models, there have been some significant changes made over time, where the 911 was largely the same car up until the water cooled addition.
Plus, most of those brands introduced alternatives that were either equal or better, and they were accepted in the market, whereas the 928 was more shunned.
Porschephiles are an odd bunch. I think even the old 912 and 912E is shunned as not being a real porsche. I can't think of any other car maker who has such toxic fans. Ferrari can release sports cars, 4 door cars, and even an SUV. Same with Alfa, Lamborghini, and Lotus (minus the SUV) and their fans do not wail and gnash their teeth
Speaking of which; Had a good friend and his wife at the track a while back in their Spec944 prepped 924S. They are hardcore Porsche fans, own several models of 924, drive to Reunion nearly every year, helped run local track days for the local Porsche Chapter, etc. A good friend of their's and fellow Porsche owner (a lovely 911 that she races) brought her new boyfriend around to meet her friends, hang out at the track and lend a hand. He's a supposed Porsche guy and as their are talking and getting acquainted, he tells them that the 924 is the worst car Porsche ever made, while standing there and looking at the car they spent years of work and scrimping and saving to get it on the track. He's damned lucky he didn't get laid flat.
So yeah, there are porcupines in every group, some groups have more than others.
alfadriver said:In reply to Driven5 :
Not to that extent. And for many of your listed models, there have been some significant changes made over time, where the 911 was largely the same car up until the water cooled addition.
Your perceptions seem to be focused exclusively on the opinions of the more extreme loyalists, purists, and elitists. Most buyers, including genuine enthusiasts, do not fit that description. The Mustang faithful were every bit as attached to the live axle as the equivalent for the 911 were to the air cooled engine, with many going so far as to even replace the token IRS that was made available with a live axle even for track use. Note which one was also done away with first...By the better part of 2 decades. Also note that switching to an all-new modern platform with an all-new modern water cooled engine only served to increase 911 sales, much the way finally ditching the live axle did for the Mustang.
The loyalists/purists will always savor that which brought them to become so, and are inherently resistant (often vocally so) to any change in that formula. This is true of any and every product that has earned such a following. However, that by no means makes them a typical buyer either. Rather, they seem to almost be more grudgingly appeased by manufacturers, largely for the sake of keeping its reputation alive to drive sales with their majority of more generic buyers.
Stefan said:The 924 had been described as the best handling Porsche out of the box at the time it was introduced and if you look at the other cars in the Porsche lineup leading up to and including that time frame you'd see why that was said.
The 924 was better than the parts it used and it did use a lot of VAG parts, but so did many 911's and 912's. The rear suspension is Super Beetle, the front is MK1 Golf both were slightly altered to work in the platform. Not surprising considering that it was originally slated to be sold by VW as a sporty runabout placed above the original Golf, the oil embargo of 73 scared them into making the Scirocco instead and Porsche bought the project from VW and produced it themselves.
Porsche at the time were nearly bankrupt and the 924/928 saved the company and plans were in place to replace the 911 with the 924/944 and 928 as the 911 chassis layout was terrible for the time as technology had progressed forward (many of their race cars had been mid-engined, so they knew the fundamental issues with a rear engined car and the 911 was just getting more and more bandaids to stay competitive).
Now, of course those "purists" that weren't buying 911 at the time decided to make a big deal about the 911 going away and forced Porsche to oust the President who was working towards dropping the 911 and actually started buying the 911 again. The sales of the 924 and its subsequent offspring, the 944 helped save Porsche so the 911 and 944 to become the status symbol they were in the 80's.
I think Porsche failed with the 924 by not replacing the engine with either the 5-cylinder engine from Audi that used similar architecture to the Audi 4-cylinder that was already there, or used a VW based engine as used in the GTi. It would have helped their lineup and developed more enthusiasts who could have been motivated to move up in the lineup as their fortunes improved. This would have solved a lot of the issues with the 924 (namely the lack of power and reliability of the old 2.0L). By the time they circled back around to bring the 924 back as the 924S, it was just as expensive to maintain as the 944 and it was just to use the leftover 924 body parts they had. Instead they missed out on the chance to be a part of the GTi mania that occurred in the 80's and 90's.
The 914 and 914/6 weren’t considered real Porsche’s and were looked down upon by the so called Porsche’s elite aswell and you know what on the track they regularly kicked the 911s but.
I guess to some it isant a real porsche unless it’s sending u into a tree on 4.5 inch “dinner plate wheels” lol
alfadriver said:What I read you typing is that most Porsche buyers share a lot with Harely riders. It's more about tradition than a better answer to the question.
Not really, I said this:
924/944 were ragged on by the faithful, purchased by the masses and saved the company.
More the folks that fancy themselves as Porshephiles than buyers, though there is some overlap
As all the cool kids (who read GRM) know, Porsche was the featured marque at the Mitty in 2017. There was a huge turnout and P-cars were everywhere!
To be honest I was dreading the Mitty that year. The thought of hanging out with Porcupines and douchebags all weekend was not a pleasant one. I admit, I had a bit of an Anti-Porsche bias, as I had run into too many uppity jerks who owned these cars. (especially the 911 owners)
You know what......... I was totally and completely wrong. The P-car owners who attended the Mitty were some of the nicest folks we've ever had there. Everyone was smiling, and happy to be there. I didn't see one case of Porsche snobbery----everyone was cool, and happy to show their cars off. I left feeling guilty that I had painted all Porsche owners with the same broad stroke. Thinking about it later, it made sense. True enthusiasts come to the Mitty, and true enthusiasts tend to be decent people with a love of cars. The jerks that give P-cars a bad name weren't there.....because they don't care about cars, they care about status.
Jerks will be jerks regardless of the cars they drive. I honestly don't have a negative reaction to Porsche owners anymore, and I do feel bad that I once did.
Those big Coal-rolling Brodozer owners though.......... yeah I still can't stand them! Prove me wrong!
I've had 10 various Porsches over the years. Several 911s. 3 944 variants, a couple of 914s, and now a Boxster. They've all had their pluses. Probably my most favorite was my 924S which I kept for six years. Just a really nice balanced and practical package.
Once upon a time I stupidly bashed the 924 in front of a 924 owner granted I was all of 17. Shortly thereafter I drove one and instantly felt like even more of a total tool. That was 38 years ago and I still feel like an idiot for disparaging someone else's car.
Having now been instructing at PCA events for some time and having driven everything from from 356 to GT3RS I can say they all have their merits.
I still love 356s, they don't oversteer anymore than my Datsun does and I think they have a nice growl. Also the 924S is one of my favorites as well. If I were willing to sell my house and live under the freeway I'd get a GT3RS.
As for unreformed tools it is rather silly isn't it. It's one thing for any idiot teenager (me) to have this attitude but grown men or women it's really rather sad.
The rap on the 924 was that it was an Audi, good lord man, look at the window. 914 was the VW. 4 cylinder VW motor with magical Porsche heads on it, makes it breathe like you could if you grew a second set of lungs. Motor in the middle with the transmission in the wayback. You flip the doohickey in it and you even use the same transmission. Freakin' German engineers, amirite.
Somehow that sounds familiar, like 356, and even 550 familiar. Started with all VW stuff and made it better, who was that guy that built the bug again...
Joe Gearin said:To be honest I was dreading the Mitty that year. The thought of hanging out with Porcupines and douchebags all weekend was not a pleasant one. I admit, I had a bit of an Anti-Porsche bias, as I had run into too many uppity jerks who owned these cars. (especially the 911 owners)
We all know you are referring to David W. 
Be nice ..
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