Jumping into a 944 clutch job...

Dads 944 doesn't go into gear like your not pushing in the clutch. Been battling it for a while, so he just got a quote of $2000 and done in 1 or 2 days.

I'm jumping in head first. I said I'd do it cheaper, how much cheaper depends on how I feel when I'm done LOL. Also will be fixing other stuff while I'm in there if it comes up, shifter play being #1 on the list. Not like that would be free at the shop price...

So any advice? Im kinda thinking of telling him to get a turbo clutch if its compatible, because I'm trying to get him to turbo it. I know I know he should just buy a 951- but this car is in amazing shape, and it used to be a GRM'ers who has passed away. So I'm thinking 8-10psi with modern EFI management should be doable on a stock good condition engine/trans. And hes not the abusive type.

But any way, I'm going out side to start on this epic wrench fest. Good thing we just did the crank/speed sensors so those at least will come right off....

~Alex

IT sounds oh so simple to just put a turbo on but it really is not. I am in the process of engineering a forced induction for my 924s and lets just say it is one of the most complicated forced induction projects I have ever embarked on and I am 3+ years in to the engineering. There is no support for doing this.

Now back to the clutch. You have two choices.

1. Remove the motor remove bellhousing install clutch and reinstall

2. Remove the exhaust system, trans, disconnect the impeller tube and move it back, back remove bellhousing install clutch and reinstall.

I have done both and quite honestly I actually prefer option #1 (I have done it more than a couple times) This option also lets you do allot of the "while you are there" maintenance very easily. there is also a lot less lying on your back under a car. And yes you can take the motor out the top. You have to remove the rad but it is much easier than out the bottom if you have an engine lift.

Option #2 is the most common.

Neither is all that hard just time consuming. It will take you 2-3 8 hour days if you are lucky as this is your first time.

I can get them done in a single day but it is a LONG day (14+ hours) and having a second person that can turn a wrench is almost a must.

I suggest that you surf over to Clark's garage and read up the procedure in the shop manual (2-3x). See Here>>> http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/clutch-01.htm

I am an admin over on that forum. When you have read everything I am sure you will have a bunch of questions. Just ask away. Just remember the only dumb question is the one you don't ask.

Again this is not a particularly hard job it is just time consuming as allot has to come apart.

Rustspecs13 wrote: Dads 944 doesn't go into gear like your not pushing in the clutch. Been battling it for a while, so he just got a quote of $2000 and done in 1 or 2 days.

Not to second guess you guys, but what makes you think it needs a new clutch? In other words, what have you done, so far, to try to remedy this issue? What have you done to prove that this job is necessary?

Agreed - unless the clutch is slipping it's likely not a clutch but a clutch master, slave or fluid line problem. I had to have my 951 flatbedded home from Watkins Glen Sunday night when something in the clutch hydraulics failed and left the peddle firmly on the floor at the end of the last session so I'll be diving into this whole system soon. Oh, and if you want to turbo your dad's 944 just buy my car as a parts donor, it's going up for sale cheeeeep.

pigeon wrote: Agreed - unless the clutch is slipping it's likely not a clutch but a clutch master, slave or fluid line problem. I had to have my 951 flatbedded home from Watkins Glen Sunday night when something in the clutch hydraulics failed and left the peddle firmly on the floor at the end of the last session so I'll be diving into this whole system soon. Oh, and if you want to turbo your dad's 944 just buy my car as a parts donor, it's going up for sale cheeeeep.

how cheeeeeeeeep? LOL PM/email em I may be interested.

Ya I would also agree take the inspection plate off and have some one push on the clutch to see if it is actually working. Getting in to gear is usually not a clutch issue. Try pushing the war with it in gear. you need to ascertain if it is clutch or hydraulic as others have said.

Your adding a turbo comment distracted me from the real issue here.

honestly, I think it not the clutch, but the mechanics that work the clutch. Most likely a blown master or slave.cylinder.

As for turboing a non-turbo 944. I would not bother. If it is in great shape.. either drive it as is.. or sell it and buy a proper 951

First, we have replaced the master and slave and super bled it twice. I still want to make a pressure bleeder, but what ever.

This clutch should have 3-6K miles. 3K from us driving it. It was replaced 4-5? years ago but then it sat untill last summer when it was titled, plated, and refreshed. Including timing belt,water pump, ETC ETC ALL maintenance that was needed was done. Runs PERFECT.

However, I do need to change the steering rack. And having the motor out would help with that. As in make it a 15 min job.

oh and the biggest reason why I want to stay with this car, is it has a fresh paint job. thats my dad, and my uncles 912 next to it. Also he restored the interior and its about perfect.

Looks like I'll be grabbing my engine hoist....

~Alex

Given that you have already dealt with the hydraulics, my experience leads me to believe your clutch disc is stuck to your flywheel or pressure plate surface. This is very common on vehicles that have sat unused for a period... even more common on ones where there are few miles on the clutch as they haven't been "seasoned". It takes about five minutes to fix this if you have a road with little traffic or a long driveway. A far better alternative to tearing it all apart and spending money for things you don't need.

I donno, when I looked at the clutch, there was a lot of rusty dust around the whole assembly. Its really all thats left. Its been driven 40 miles or so by turning it off at stops and shifting carefully. Didn't really change.

We'll see in a few more hours of work.

~Alex

Well, I'm not telling you should do this as it could be dangerous since you don't have full control over the car. But, if it were me, since I have done this on at least a dozen examples, I would roll the car out to the street or out to the driveway if it is long enough. Then, WITH THE CLUTCH PEDAL PUSHED IN and the car in first gear, I'd start the engine while CONTINUING TO HOLD DOWN THE CLUTCH PEDAL and allow the vehicle to start moving under its own power. Then, WHILE STILL HOLDING THE CLUTCH PEDAL DOWN, depress the accelerator pedal sharply and release it abruptly a few times until the clutch breaks loose all the while making sure the roadway is clear and being ready to shut the engine off if an emergency arises. It takes only a few minutes and saves a whole bunch of work. That's what I would do...not that I am recommending anyone else do it as it can be dangerous as earlier stated. Or you can spend a few hours and dollars replacing the clutch without even trying this method.

Thats what we did. I showed my dad how to do it, and he drove it around randomly for two weeks. Totally "safe" if your not stupid. All those miles didn't do anything unfortunately.

And yes, on a level surface and starting the car as such, it would creep forward. Or reverse if started in reverse. As if you never had dis engaged the clutch enough.

~Alex

Oh well, take lots of pics and good luck

I just skimmed the thread, but it sound like you may not have it bled all the way. These cars can be a real PITA to bleed. Has anyone actually take the rubber plug out of the bell housing and watched the slave cylinder piston to make sure it pushes in the clutch fork? If so, then by all means go for the advise in the previous post. But I would definitely check that before anything else.

Carzan- it wasn't stuck to the flywheel or pressure plate, just dragging I think. Because it would idle in 1st or reverse if you started in gear and held the brakes. It just acted like you didn;t release the clutch enough, it always kept dragging.

Corey- I'm not sure if it is 100% bled, but I adjusted the pedal to the end of its adjustment, and no dice. The biggest clue is that theres a lot of red dust in the clutch assembly. I'm thinking something broke in the clutch because of the 4-5 years it sat. Then had 3K miles put on it, and then it broke. And I could see the clutch/tob moving in and out what seemed like a normal amount.

This isn't my first clutch job, just my first on a 944. And its no different then my nissans, the 944 just has engineers that taunt you with almost enough space to access things ;) Trust me the last thing I wanted to do was pull the motor or trans, but oh well. We'll see exactly what the problem is soon.

Pigeon- I'm interested!

~Alex

Rustspecs13 wrote: Carzan- it wasn't stuck to the flywheel or pressure plate, just dragging I think. Because it would idle in 1st or reverse if you started in gear and held the brakes. It just acted like you didn;t release the clutch enough, it always kept dragging.

Yeah, with that info (I was assuming it was stuck solid), we're back to hydraulics, defective PP (as racinginc215 said), binding pilot or a disc that's coming apart (that I can think of, right now).

Hydraulics are the only thing that don't require opening the thing up and if you have to replace the rack anyway, given I don't know how much effort it is to pull the rack with the engine in place, the labor might end up being kind of a wash.

Again, take pics as the documentation may prove helpful to others.

racinginc215 wrote: I'm going to be that guy. but it seems you've already decided your doing this clutch no matter what. And I'm betting that in two weeks you post a thread did the 944 clutch and it's doing the same thing. What do you think broke in the clutch? what is a normal amount of movement? why would something break in the 4-5 years it sat? was the car in a flood? your last post indicates it's not a bad clutch but a problem in the hydraulic system. the first line it acted like it would not release enough. broken pressure plate would do that all the time. This seems to be the new McParts store attitude towards cars just toss parts at them until it's fixed or goes away.you gave yourself the answer but refuse to accept it. So if you replace it and it does the same thing are you going to replace it again? your still not going to be 100% sure on the bleed are you? oh wait you will have to bleed it again. or just bleed it right this time and see if the problem goes away. I'd adjust the pedal back to it's other limit and then re bleed the system correctly and see if the problem goes away, quoted 2K for a clutch wonder what they would have charged to bleed it? wonder what a decent Porsche shop would have charged to diagnose it properly?

I'm doing this to really save my dad money. Hes the one that wants the clutch replaced, and I believe that it is the problem, or a problem in that area with the TOB or something like that. With the red dust I saw I'm sure theres a problem with the disk. He was about to pay $2K for a shop to do the clutch, and what happens when that wasn't the problem, and they didn't inspect other stuff or replace other stuff while they were in there like I will?

I do not just throw parts at a car, I diagnose as much as I can, get second opinions and decide from there. It looks like the master/slave didn't really need replacing, but if it was you, just to eliminate possibility's thats a good option to the 10-12 hours of engine/trans removal.

And I planned on making or buying a pressure bleeder some time in the next few days. Theres a 944 at upartit, and I want to grap the master cylinder cap in case I'll need that for bleeding.

Oh and yeah the rack requires like 10 hours of labor, not pulling the motor. So putting that problem in with the clutch, I cant really lose. With the engine out, the exact problem will be found, and it'll be super easy to replace the steering rack.

~Alex

Alex, The PS rack is really easy. I have done enough of them that I can do one on an NA 944 in about 30 min. Be very careful about the bolts that hold the rack to the aluminum crossmember. Aluminum is soft; really soft. For the clutch, if you're still thinking about taking the engine out to do it, you need to read more. You will save a weekend by going at it from the rear of the car. Additionally, you won't have to troubleshoot the engine electronics the next weekend. And if you do: its the reference sensors, which your local BMW dealer should have in stock if needed.

I always to the clutches from underneath too. Drop the transmission, unbolt the exhaust and shifter, unbolt the torque tube and slide it back, pull the bell housing and you're in! The clutch fork is held in with a large pin and the bell housing won't come off until you pull that pin. It's got a threaded hole in it, so I generally just find a bolt that will fit the threads, then use a deep well socket that has a larger inner diameter than the pin's outer diameter, put the socket over the pin and thread the bolt through the hole in the middle of the socket and into the pin. That should pull it straight out.

The engine is almost out, I just need to bring my engine hoist here and hook it up.

asoduk- interesting you can do the rack in 30min. Oh well engine being out will only help that part of the job. We already replaced the crank/reference sensors, those crapped out in december and when we replaced those last month, this new problem of not going into gear showed up. Thats what started this....

Corey- Thanks a lot thats the kind of stuff I need to know! I guess my dads haynes manual would have that but I haven't quite gotten there.

~Alex

You now have to evaluate the "while you are there list"

Front service is really easy with the motor out.

New speed and reference sensors are also really easy to get at and it is simple to get the new ones properly offset from the flywheel..

Then there is the engine compartment its self.

The trick to getting the motor out the top is removal of the rad. Pull the motor forward then twist the motor about 30 degrees once the impeller shaft is clear of the bellhousing. Then slide the motor back with it still at the 30 deg angle and lift out. You only have about an inch to spare but it fits fine. Oh ya dropping the exhaust manifold down by disconnecting the hangers at the mid point and the back will also help. Just rubber slip on hangers. Really simple to remove/reinstall.

I would definitely do oil cooler seals while it's out. They're cheap and it kinda sucks to do with the engine in the car, especially if you have power steering.

Ok got the motor out.

notice any thing?

Looks like something came apart. That;s as far as I got, had some trouble pulling the pin for the tob lever and un bolted the clutch. Left the exhaust in one piece, now that the engines out i'll sperate it, now that theres room to work.

~Alex

Not that I think this is what is happening here, but I've had a damper spring come out of the disc and wedge between the disc and the flywheel causing similar symptoms to what you were experiencing. But, it made quite a bit of noise and I wouldn't have thought this likely on a clutch with no more miles than this one has. It will be very interesting to see exactly what is going on here. Kinda makes me think something got put together wrong when this clutch was installed. Thanks for the pics.

Before I read the text, I was thinking "Holy crap! All the bolts came out of the pressure plate! That might be a problem!"