nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand UberDork
2/5/21 1:58 p.m.

Ok I have seen the light, the future of the future is Electric.  Probably even for our hobbies.  So lets say someone wanted to firmly embrace this.  

What would it take to make electic drivetrains of the following equivalent performance that would offer 20-30 minutes of run time with potentially swappable battery packs for track day and racing?

~30-40 HP equivalent, Target is TAG / Shifter kart type vehicles

60-80 HP equivalent, Target Similar performance to Formula Vee

110-120 HP Equivalent, Target Formula Ford, Spec Race Ford type vehicle.

 

I really don't know what kind of $$ this would take.  But for a new build motors for these series are frequently ~3K for a TAG engine, ~8K for the FVee, 12K for a new Honda engine for a Formula Ford.    

I was playing with the EV west calculators and got myself fully confused on how much KW battery I would need.  

 

Also please don't turn this into a complaint session about how the future may or may not be electric and that the electricty will come from coal/natural gas/generator.  Yes that's obvious.  If a series were ran there would have to be a large generator provided to charge the batteries.  That's not what this is about.   This is about the feasibilty and costs of producing power systems that make those 3 equivalent HP and would be able to run a typical track session or short sprint race.

sleepyhead the buffalo
sleepyhead the buffalo Mod Squad
2/5/21 2:51 p.m.
nocones said:

110-120 HP Equivalent, Target Formula Ford, Spec Race Ford type vehicle.

so, EVSR is already working on an electric SRF.  I think they're on a "Gen2" version, but nowhere to play yet... but I think they've done UTCC once or twice?

that said... I'd really dig a FormulaEV setup that was 'slightly' more open than current FormulaV rules.  Open to front/rear/awd setups, with maybe different controller/breaker limits for each.  I'm pretty sure some of the Zero motorcycle drivetrains would slot right in, power-wise.  I think the skinny tires, and limited suspension adjustment, compromised suspension geometry would fit make an interesting EV race series on a budget.

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 SuperDork
2/5/21 10:16 p.m.

EVSR has been running SCCA regionals in the north east, as well as NASA. Watch for an SCCA rule set soon to embrace the performance targets in Nocones post.  We get 45 minutes race time at FV performance level and will have interchangeable battery packs in the near future with an endurance racing target. Generation 2 car in the photo, I designed the body, but still have not driven the carfrown They already banged up the nose on this one....

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 SuperDork
2/5/21 10:28 p.m.

Note as well that some track operators will not allow lithium ion batteries due to legitimate fire safety concerns. It is probable that the SCCA will mandate lithium ferrous phosphate cells of the type we use in EVSR for the same reason. better photo of Gen2 below

 

Rons
Rons GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
2/5/21 10:51 p.m.

The CACC  (the ASN rep in BC) GCR has the regulations for EVs in competition - section 23 http://www.caccautosport.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/2019-CACC-GCR-V1-1.pdf

I have nothing useful to add beyond more questions.

I wonder where the batteries would fit in a formula chassis. How physically large would the pack be to run 20 to 30 minutes? Gas tank size? I guess you could spread them out unlike a gas tank but then quick changing them becomes harder. A SRF might be a better chassis just because of more space under the bodywork. 

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 SuperDork
2/6/21 9:31 a.m.

In reply to Toyman01 (Moderately Supportive Dude) :

The battery packs in EVSR take up most of the side pod area on both sides to run 45 minutes at Spec racer speeds, or 8 minutes in "hillclimb" mode which triples the power. While this space would be much smaller with LiOn batteries, you could not safely run them in the side pods! The LiFePo batteries are good crush zones with minimal fire potential, LiOn would likely explode in a similar incident.

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/6/21 9:35 a.m.

I've long thought a formula leaf class would be a lot of fun. Make it simar to formula v - formula car chassis, running components all from donor car.

 

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 SuperDork
2/6/21 9:46 a.m.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

Well informed track operators will never allow LiOn power. If they have an on track fire their facility is shut down for several weeks to repair the track surface. NJMP already specifically forbids them. No Tesla at TNIA.

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
2/6/21 9:57 a.m.
nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
2/6/21 10:08 a.m.
nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
2/6/21 10:16 a.m.

More power and longer run times require a larger battery pack, which takes a bigger motor to push, which consumes more power, which requires a larger battery pack... the cycle gets very expensive very fast.

Fun hobby projects under 10 hp can be pretty inexpensive because so many mass produced components exist in that space. But 30hp, 75hp, 150hp, 300 hp, more?  Higher power targets mean electrification becomes very expensive compared to ubiquitous ICE alternatives.

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
2/6/21 11:20 a.m.

In reply to nderwater :

The "Electric Dirtbike Destroys 4-strokes" video is clickbaitish. I only watched up to the first ad, but a few things became apparent:

1. A dirtbike's ability is very much driver-determined, much like autocrossing a car.

2. For something said to "destroy" the competition, they're essentially side-by-side for a surprisingly long time.

3. Even after the electric pulls ahead, you can hear the 4-stroke which means that it's not far behind. Him not looking back is very "convenient."

So, yeah, it's it's hard to say which is better given the circumstances. A contender, yes, destroyer.... meh.

nderwater
nderwater UltimaDork
2/6/21 11:33 a.m.

In reply to kb58 :

Totally agree. The video is a good demonstration, though, that modern electrics can hang with status quo motorsports bikes. 

weedburner
weedburner Reader
2/6/21 11:41 a.m.

Is an on-board sbc powered generator charging a 5lb battery legal?

 

Grant

 

GIRTHQUAKE
GIRTHQUAKE Dork
2/6/21 11:02 p.m.
nocones said:

~30-40 HP equivalent, Target is TAG / Shifter kart type vehicles

60-80 HP equivalent, Target Similar performance to Formula Vee

110-120 HP Equivalent, Target Formula Ford, Spec Race Ford type vehicle.

30-40 would probably be the Zero's Brushless DC motor; rated for 44HP bbut some ~200lb feet (?) of torque or so. It's a little bigger than your hand and is as "thick" as a beer can.

60-80? Honestly, too many to say on both OEM side AND on wierd alibaba side. I think the front motor for the Acura/Honda NSX is some 80HP or so.

110-120 I think would be the rear motor and diff for the Mitsubishi outlander. I'd have to find the link, but I know there's someone swapping one into a Marcos Mini for his motor on the DIY Electric car forums. Here's a link to the company that makes it. Some people are trying to hack it now- it was also in the iMIEV- and they keep making it more powerful.

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