Jaynen said:When EVwest brought their E36 car to autocross in San Diego it could not get the power down even in the dry it was like a lightswitch, making the car drivable and usable will be a challenge also
That's a pretty easy thing to tune... Specifying a specific torque output in an electric motor is a whole lot easier than in a gas engine.
I would have thought yeah you would have way more control but they seemed to struggle with it, I wonder how much there is in the drivers learning HOW to drive them differently to take advantage vs trying to force the electric car to mimic an ICE one
No min pit stop time in lemons right? Wonder how long pitstops that are not driver changes usually take?
Seeing some utube, I think there's this huge fascination with the whole "max torque at zero rpm" thing- so that's put into how it runs. Heck, traction control is super easy with an electric motor.
So it's more about the theory of how they work vs the actual application of making it work really well. A clever torque map (vehicle speed vs. pedal) would make it drive really well.
In reply to alfadriver :
I keep wondering who's going to make an EV that has a "3rd pedal" who's purpose is to feed in the torque limit from the inverter from a standstill?
alfadriver said:Seeing some utube, I think there's this huge fascination with the whole "max torque at zero rpm" thing- so that's put into how it runs.
This has a lot to do with people's fascination with torque in general and the misconception that torque accelerates you.
In reply to alfadriver :
Sometimes I feel like, as an engineer, my job is simply to walk around bursting everybody's bubbles. But that's what happens when you spend 8 years of higher education studying annoying things like facts and science and E36 M3. And everyone gets mad at you because you tell them how it _is_, and not perpetuating some dumbass superstition, fantasy, or internet lore.
so, I had another thought about this over the last couple weeks
and, the FormulaE thread, and some others that have popped up of late, had me decide to revive this thread; it seems to me that there's percolating hum of interest in this... brewing. So, why not keeping the thread going?
the thought:
One other way to "stack the deck" in favor of the EV car... is to go against what was said before. Run at a warm race, but specifically at a high/hot race... where the decreased density altitude will put ICE cars down on power.
looking around, that probably means the Lemons races in AZ or CO. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that High Plains Raceway has the infrastructure to handle the charging requirements. And, I can't find very much information about the AZ track.
I still wonder about a Leaf drivetrain in a gen2 Prius. The batteries are going to be the trick, though. That, and their quick disconnect and locking mechanisms.
If I remember correctly, High Plains does not even have running water. They truck in all the water they use. The restrooms are potty-trailers.
However, they are so far out and away from people that noise wouldn't be a problem, like the noise coming from a 1,500kw semi trailer mounted diesel generator which is easy to rent.
https://www.unitedrentals.com/marketplace/equipment/power-hvac/diesel-generators/1500-kw-generator#/
The generator will run 13.6 hours on 1,250 gallons of diesel (nearly 92 gallons per hour.) Wow, that is some real irony on fuel savings and clean energy. Ha.
Another option is to redefine the car.
Take this boat example...
Is this one boat that could be powered by multiple jet skis (swapped out)? Now, substitute jet skis for Nissan Leafs (Leaves) and power some larger vehicle.
In reply to John Welsh :
I think that approach would mean carrying around too much extra weight. In some ways you're maybe advocating for a 'miata roller skate', where the powerplant/batteries/backbone/suspension/wheels/tires are swapped between a single body/cage?
I think, though, instead you could make the often-used term of 'rollerskate' as a concept. Have a plate of batteries that have a 1kW electric motor and wheels so that the battery pack drives to/from the racecar. once in the 'skate's wheels/1kW motor are inop, or switch to cooling duty? ideally you'd want two pit stalls, so you can drop one pack withe second pre-staged? unless you want to add the complexity of making them drive laterally.
I may have just come into possession of an NA that has no future, a new understanding of electrics and a friend who works in the EV industry. I know how fast you have to go to win at HPR. Hmmm.
There’s no real infrastructure at HPR, but if you can stick batteries on a trailer you can charge them elsewhere. Or you bring the power in big batteries and transfer it.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I do think FWD or AWD would be a hotter ticket as you could use Regen to its fullest. My current thought is a salvage bolt grafted into something like a CRX with swappable packs. Sounds simple but you would need to dome the floor for the pack. Then I need to look into how the AC loop interacts with pack cooling loop and if it can still swap packs easily and keep things cool during race use.
I know Miatas so if I’m going to do this, I’m going to do it with a Miata. FWD, ewww ;) But a dual motor first gen CRX would be epic. It’s been done as an ICE.
I wonder how much regen we can actually get? Someone needs to run a Tesla on track and see what the logs say.
Keith Tanner said:I know Miatas so if I’m going to do this, I’m going to do it with a Miata. FWD, ewww ;) But a dual motor first gen CRX would be epic. It’s been done as an ICE.
I wonder how much regen we can actually get? Someone needs to run a Tesla on track and see what the logs say.
I mean, it would be nice to have the data to try and build some scenarios via OptimumLap (I don't think they've got HPR)... you know, for science.
I think Regen would be huge, especially if the car is fast enough to not need to be driven at 10/10ths the whole time.
Cutting just one pit stop decreases lap times significantly.
Keith Tanner said:I know Miatas so if I’m going to do this, I’m going to do it with a Miata. FWD, ewww ;) But a dual motor first gen CRX would be epic. It’s been done as an ICE.
I wonder how much regen we can actually get? Someone needs to run a Tesla on track and see what the logs say.
Someone? I wonder who we could get to do that...
Toyman01 said:Keith Tanner said:I know Miatas so if I’m going to do this, I’m going to do it with a Miata. FWD, ewww ;) But a dual motor first gen CRX would be epic. It’s been done as an ICE.
I wonder how much regen we can actually get? Someone needs to run a Tesla on track and see what the logs say.
Someone? I wonder who we could get to do that...
that someone has both race miatas and a model 3 now.
ProDarwin said:alfadriver said:Seeing some utube, I think there's this huge fascination with the whole "max torque at zero rpm" thing- so that's put into how it runs.
This has a lot to do with people's fascination with torque in general and the misconception that torque accelerates you.
But torque IS what accelerates you. Peoples' misconception is in failing to take gearing into account.
Gearing multiplies torque, and high revving engines give a lot of room for more multiplication.
Knurled. said:ProDarwin said:alfadriver said:Seeing some utube, I think there's this huge fascination with the whole "max torque at zero rpm" thing- so that's put into how it runs.
This has a lot to do with people's fascination with torque in general and the misconception that torque accelerates you.
But torque IS what accelerates you. Peoples' misconception is in failing to take gearing into account.
Gearing multiplies torque, and high revving engines give a lot of room for more multiplication.
No. I can make a lot of torque with gearing, but I can't accelerate a car very quickly.
In reply to RX8driver :
That is where the term "horsepower" comes into play. Horsepower is just how much torque you can put to the ground.
Regarding rollerskates, I used to think a neat cheat would be to enter a car, make a couple laps, then pull it into the pits, raise the body off of the drivetrain and suspension, and swap a completely different unit underneath. If it took an hour to do the swap, how much faster could you be?
Regen in general gets you about a 10-15% increase in range, it is highly overrated, but it is real.
Road racing doesn't brake as much as you might think.
If you brake hard, you need a battery that can absorb the very high charge rate.
It isn't going to make a difference to beat the gas cars in lemons. They only way to win is to cheat..in some way.
EVs should do very well in Autocross, but there are not many doing it. Why not?
You'd never make up the laps with an hour off track. The pointy end of the field at a Lemons race is stiff competition. Teams that win one race might be in 8th the next because they spent 15 minutes off track for a mechanical or black flag.
nimblemotorsports said:EVs should do very well in Autocross, but there are not many doing it. Why not?
There are still not many cheap powerful swaps. Most of the swaps using factory stuff use a can bus spoofer so you get stock power which pretty much means the Tesla swapped ones are the only fast ones. They are also very pricey just in parts. The aftermarket stuff that is anywhere near sane prices is pretty low HP.
John Welsh said:If I remember correctly, High Plains does not even have running water. They truck in all the water they use. The restrooms are potty-trailers.
However, they are so far out and away from people that noise wouldn't be a problem, like the noise coming from a 1,500kw semi trailer mounted diesel generator which is easy to rent.
https://www.unitedrentals.com/marketplace/equipment/power-hvac/diesel-generators/1500-kw-generator#/
The generator will run 13.6 hours on 1,250 gallons of diesel (nearly 92 gallons per hour.) Wow, that is some real irony on fuel savings and clean energy. Ha.
A 1500 kW generator running full time would support a LOT of EVs.
Knurled. said:But torque IS what accelerates you.
Without knowing rate of delivery, it means nothing. Torque with a rate of delivery = horsepower.
Putting this back in the original context, 1 gazillion lb-ft of torque at zero RPM is not helpful.
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