1 ... 5 6 7 8 9
mazdeuce
mazdeuce UltimaDork
8/17/16 4:36 p.m.

Both the FiestaST and the FocusST need to be driven in their own special way to fully take advantage of the electronics, I'd be shocked if the RS didn't have this character as well, and it sounds like it does.
I've seen a grey one in the wild now, they're dead sexy.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/17/16 5:02 p.m.
Tyler H wrote: As long as OEMs tune cars assuming that the dumbest 20 year old sales puke lets the dumbest 19 year old fresh-up take a Focus RS out on a test drive which was just filled up with 87 octane by the dumbest 17 year old lot boy, in Phoenix, in summer and just turn them loose and it won't blow up....there's gotta be something left on the table.

The computers are sophisticated enough that there may be 10-20 different maps/modifiers for, say, ignition timing, depending on all sorts of variables, so that you no longer NEED to leave anything on the table.

And then Tuner B finds out that altering the global timing map, or the MAF transfer table, or something else, gives more power and is acceptable under good conditions. But he only ever tested under good conditions, and then consumers find that it detonates like a pig when it's hot and it's been at WOT for more than ten seconds. The wrong map was altered for the desired effect.

Not that this hasn't happened a lot in the history of tuner mapping.

Lurk the forums for the various 3rd-party tuning software to see all the fun ways to get it wrong.

Kreb
Kreb GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
8/17/16 5:46 p.m.

Vorschlag is very well respected in the industry. I see very little likelihood that he's going to put his reputation on the line with bogus claims. My impression is that Ford has made a great 8/10ths car that falls short when subjected to sustained flogging. If so they will be neither the first nor the last to do so. Chances are that via further product development on the part of Ford and the aftermarket, the car will get closer to its potential.

Driven5
Driven5 Dork
8/17/16 6:08 p.m.

In reply to Knurled:

Whether they 'need' to or not, the existence of factory backed performance tunes (warrantied and 50 state legal) that make significant improvements would seem to refute the hypothesis that nothing is being left on the table. I'm guessing (hoping) there will also be a factory backed performance tune for the RS, much like there is for the ST.

mazdeuce
mazdeuce UltimaDork
8/17/16 7:32 p.m.
Kreb wrote: Vorschlag is very well respected in the industry.

Fair is very opinionated. That doesn't make his opinion the only or best one.

Ian F
Ian F MegaDork
8/17/16 8:55 p.m.
Kreb wrote: Chances are that via further product development on the part of Ford and the aftermarket, the car will get closer to its potential.

Speaking of further development by Ford...

engiekev
engiekev New Reader
8/18/16 8:37 a.m.

Right on point.

This is not the 90's where engine management limitations left room for improvement in certain conditions. The less complex tunes in those days had to be tuned conservatively to account for all conditions. Now processing power and sensor improvements have caught up, and its possible to optimize for nearly every situation. Sure a tuner may find gains by ramping up spark globally in one area, but then what happens when those changes are applied to a different elevation, temperature, fuel, etc.?

That's not even to mention that calibrations are specifically designed for durability and passing emissions, and are robustly tested as such. Even top dollar tuners do not have access to resources like climate controlled wind tunnels, engine dynos running 24/7, and others to fully test what they are doing.

Knurled wrote:
Tyler H wrote: As long as OEMs tune cars assuming that the dumbest 20 year old sales puke lets the dumbest 19 year old fresh-up take a Focus RS out on a test drive which was just filled up with 87 octane by the dumbest 17 year old lot boy, in Phoenix, in summer and just turn them loose and it won't blow up....there's gotta be something left on the table.
The computers are sophisticated enough that there may be 10-20 different maps/modifiers for, say, ignition timing, depending on all sorts of variables, so that you no longer NEED to leave anything on the table. And then Tuner B finds out that altering the global timing map, or the MAF transfer table, or something else, gives more power and is acceptable under good conditions. But he only ever tested under good conditions, and then consumers find that it detonates like a pig when it's hot and it's been at WOT for more than ten seconds. The wrong map was altered for the desired effect. Not that this hasn't happened a lot in the history of tuner mapping. Lurk the forums for the various 3rd-party tuning software to see all the fun ways to get it wrong.

For the RS, mountune is a unique case as they worked directly with Ford and it is Ford approved. Note that specific kit is UK only at this point

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ford-focus-rs-mountune-performance-kit-boosts-power-370bhp

Kreb
Kreb GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
8/18/16 9:17 a.m.

I don't really "get it" when it comes to taking an already highly strung, new, warrantied car and letting a tuner try and get another 10 percent power out of it. It was one thing when you were just dealing with enrichment and spark curves, but with how many parameters you have now, it just seems like there are too many ways to screw up.

Suspension, tires, adding a differential cooler, aero aids, those I understand. The car is set up to meet a set of criteria which may not match your own, so go for it. But if you're going to berkeley with the factory tune on something like this, you don't have a leg to stand on if and when you damage the motor.

jstein77
jstein77 UltraDork
8/18/16 11:02 a.m.

8 hours and counting....

Until the ship with my car aboard docks at Jacksonville, that is.

I'm not excited or anything, am I?

RossD
RossD UltimaDork
8/18/16 11:09 a.m.

So will you be 'sitting on the dock of the bay' waiting for it?

jstein77
jstein77 UltraDork
8/18/16 11:27 a.m.

No, I'll have to wait until it appears at my dealer first.

mndsm
mndsm MegaDork
8/18/16 11:29 a.m.

I can be to jacksonville in 2 hours. Will hand deliver for beer and no comments on why you need new tires.

Nick (picaso) Comstock
Nick (picaso) Comstock UltimaDork
8/18/16 11:31 a.m.
engiekev wrote: Right on point. This is not the 90's where engine management limitations left room for improvement in certain conditions. The less complex tunes in those days had to be tuned conservatively to account for all conditions. Now processing power and sensor improvements have caught up, and its possible to optimize for nearly every situation. Sure a tuner may find gains by ramping up spark globally in one area, but then what happens when those changes are applied to a different elevation, temperature, fuel, etc.? That's not even to mention that calibrations are specifically designed for durability and passing emissions, and are robustly tested as such. Even top dollar tuners do not have access to resources like climate controlled wind tunnels, engine dynos running 24/7, and others to fully test what they are doing.
Knurled wrote:
Tyler H wrote: As long as OEMs tune cars assuming that the dumbest 20 year old sales puke lets the dumbest 19 year old fresh-up take a Focus RS out on a test drive which was just filled up with 87 octane by the dumbest 17 year old lot boy, in Phoenix, in summer and just turn them loose and it won't blow up....there's gotta be something left on the table.
The computers are sophisticated enough that there may be 10-20 different maps/modifiers for, say, ignition timing, depending on all sorts of variables, so that you no longer NEED to leave anything on the table. And then Tuner B finds out that altering the global timing map, or the MAF transfer table, or something else, gives more power and is acceptable under good conditions. But he only ever tested under good conditions, and then consumers find that it detonates like a pig when it's hot and it's been at WOT for more than ten seconds. The wrong map was altered for the desired effect. Not that this hasn't happened a lot in the history of tuner mapping. Lurk the forums for the various 3rd-party tuning software to see all the fun ways to get it wrong.
For the RS, mountune is a unique case as they worked directly with Ford and it is Ford approved. Note that specific kit is UK only at this point http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ford-focus-rs-mountune-performance-kit-boosts-power-370bhp

I'd guess that it'll likely stay UK only as well. The EPA just smacked Harley Davidson upside the head for selling tuners and modifying tunes on customer bikes. Ford involvement or not, the EPA will not let them modify a tune.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-18/u-s-sues-harley-for-selling-emission-control-defeat-devices

Driven5
Driven5 Dork
8/18/16 11:34 a.m.
jstein77 wrote: 8 hours and counting.... Until the ship with my car aboard docks at Jacksonville, that is. I'm not excited or anything, am I?

Soooo...Just how much more painful is it to stare at a live tracking ship map than a live tracking flight map?

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
8/18/16 1:08 p.m.
engiekev wrote: For the RS, mountune is a unique case as they worked directly with Ford and it is Ford approved. Note that specific kit is UK only at this point http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ford-focus-rs-mountune-performance-kit-boosts-power-370bhp

I understand that Mountune works with Ford and supplies tunes that are warrantied. So are we saying that there is nothing left on the table, or are we saying that a Ford authorized tuner is making an harmful compromise?

engiekev
engiekev New Reader
8/18/16 1:15 p.m.

The warranty for the mountune kit is similar the old Ford Racing "power packs", at least in the US. A new powertrain warranty is applied, and only applies to parts the tune affects, so there is some gray area that would make dealing with a dealer for service potentially difficult. Note this is far better than if you were to buy any other tuners product, as a dealer could deny all warranty on the engine if they detect a tune.

This UK kit appears to retain full warranty, but like mentioned this exact same kit may not be sold in the US.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/warranty/

https://performanceparts.ford.com/warranty/include/pdf/Select_Parts_Warranty_Statement_2015.pdf

Tyler H wrote:
engiekev wrote: For the RS, mountune is a unique case as they worked directly with Ford and it is Ford approved. Note that specific kit is UK only at this point http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/ford-focus-rs-mountune-performance-kit-boosts-power-370bhp
I understand that Mountune works with Ford and supplies tunes that are warrantied. So are we saying that there is nothing left on the table, or are we saying that a Ford authorized tuner is making an harmful compromise?
engiekev
engiekev New Reader
8/18/16 1:20 p.m.

Sounds like they didn't actually test the tuned vehicles for passing emissions and get CARB approval. Ford covered tunes and parts do so, and are not defeat devices as such.

Nick (picaso) Comstock wrote: ...
Nick (picaso) Comstock
Nick (picaso) Comstock UltimaDork
8/18/16 1:33 p.m.

In reply to engiekev:

We'll see how it shakes out. EPA says it's illegal to modify an engine, CARB has nothing to do with it.

STM317
STM317 HalfDork
8/18/16 1:51 p.m.
Nick (picaso) Comstock wrote: In reply to engiekev: We'll see how it shakes out. EPA says it's illegal to modify an engine, CARB has nothing to do with it.

It's not illegal to modify an engine if that engine is then subject to the same emissions tests as it was when it was stock. The problem is emissions testing can get expensive quickly and most manufacturers won't go through that amount of trouble for an aftermarket tuner. They will do it for a separate "halo" model though like the RS500 that was linked to above however.

I think there are 3 things that manufacturers consider when tuning.

  1. Emissions compliance- can't sell a product if it doesn't meet regs

  2. Performance/Fuel economy - They typically want as much of each as possible, but it's obviously a tradeoff

  3. Warranty cost/mechanical limits - These days, engineers don't leave much on the table. The low hanging fruit is typically gone before it gets into tuner's hands. Using the FoRS as an example, If boost is raised, it stresses the engine more which shortens the life of components. That's why manufacturer authorized tunes like Mountune's stuff come with a warranty that replaces the factory warranty and covers less, or covers it for a shorter time frame. They don't want to be on the hook if it goes boom sooner than the stock version might.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/18/16 1:51 p.m.
Nick (picaso) Comstock wrote: In reply to engiekev: We'll see how it shakes out. EPA says it's illegal to modify an engine, CARB has nothing to do with it.

It's illegal to modify anything that effects emissions. That's why cat-back exhausts are legal, anything that replaces a cat isn't.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/18/16 1:57 p.m.

In reply to Nick (picaso) Comstock:

Cars get reflashed with updated tunes/strategies all the time, though.

Nick (picaso) Comstock
Nick (picaso) Comstock UltimaDork
8/18/16 2:21 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac:

Yes, that's what I meant to imply. Poorly worded.

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
8/18/16 2:44 p.m.

Anyway, this thread has devolved. Enjoy your new RS, Jstein! I'm packing my bags and heading back to the 90's.

jstein77
jstein77 UltraDork
8/19/16 8:20 a.m.

The Garnet Leader docked yesterday in Jacksonville and unloaded overnight, so my car has now taken its first turn of the wheels on American soil. I'm expecting it in my hands in a couple of weeks or less.

Knurled
Knurled GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/19/16 7:03 p.m.
Tyler H wrote: Anyway, this thread has devolved. Enjoy your new RS, Jstein! I'm packing my bags and heading back to the 90's.

Even RS threads have "drift mode"

1 ... 5 6 7 8 9

You'll need to log in to post.

Our Preferred Partners
bvTNhYI8MKKbTqnT9B51ETHfTre7MsnpVfd1v9V838Rk6YzmokWSVGTQ5iJeAGHh