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yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/22/22 7:53 p.m.

In reply to Trent :

Oh here go hell come!

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/22/22 8:22 p.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Jaguar brakes were more than a decade ahead most of the rest of the world.  It's  understanding  that they understand that different cars  require different sized wheel cylinders. ( and they do ).  
      But I'm pretty sure the different sized cylinders bolt onto the same mount.  

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/22/22 8:39 p.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Let me know what size your cylinders are I'll check with mine.  But you can salvage any cylinder by either brass or stainless steel lining. 
     For a long while there was a company here in the US that cast stainless steel wheel cylinders.  I've lost track of them.   
   But have you tried  people like Terry's Jaguar and heck even Welsh or Rock Auto?   Then there are various Jaguar Junk yards that might have them  on the shelf.  

Don49 (Forum Supporter)
Don49 (Forum Supporter) Dork
8/22/22 8:54 p.m.

White Post Restorations in Virginia might be the company Frenchy is referencing.

jr02518
jr02518 HalfDork
8/22/22 8:55 p.m.

Take a look at whitepost.com

White Post Restorations, I have caliper parts from my Datsun on the way to be rebuilt.  Looks like a turn around of less than 2 weeks at a cost just under what I found for new replacements.

But for my car I could only find new inner half's.  The outer are a different size, on my car and not available. New.

The calculations required to size my brakes were done with a slide rule.  Like the one my Dad used to calculate things when he was flying his A4.  Yep, I will keep the brakes as designed.

David

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/22/22 9:56 p.m.
Don49 (Forum Supporter) said:

White Post Restorations in Virginia might be the company Frenchy is referencing.

Perhaps.   I know they were brand new and not a sleeved cylinder.   They went on my Black Jack spl as soon as they were available and are still on it at the Packard Museum.  

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
8/23/22 12:01 a.m.

The first segment in Jay's video is timely, and just dropped:

 

 

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/23/22 8:47 a.m.

I did not measure the wheel cylinders.  I found a place in NY, Apple Hydraulics, that offers overhaul and specifically noted this particular caliper on their website.  Both calipers on on their way now.  Hopefully they can overhaul them without any drama.  

I'm sure Jaguar employed some fine engineers...but sometimes if you let the engineers run things too much, you end up with needless expense, complication, and redundancy.  I'm not sure of the curb weight difference between, say, an E type and the 3.8S, but I wager if they used the same brakes on the sporty E as they did on the saloon, 99% of saloon drivers would have been just fine with that, and the brakes still would have been better than every other car at that price on the planet.  

E type parts seem to grow on trees, but saloon-specific parts are harder to come by.  

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/23/22 8:51 a.m.

Where we started last night. 

And where we punched the time clock to come in. 

The half shafts had to come off to remove the rotors, and in doing so I noted the grease fitting on the passenger side inner u joint had broken off. That u joint, unsurprisingly, also had a bit of a stickiness to it. So I'm getting a new u joint there. The other 3 seemed to work fine, with no slop. All the suspension articulations seem to work ok, too. Everything seems to have been well greased, at least. 

The hub assemblies had to come off to remove the trailing arms, as I'd noted above.  This was the assembly I couldn't figure out how Coventry had put together.  

I am keeping track of shims and such, to make sure it all goes back together the same way.  Jaguar sure loved their shims.  Luckily, as rusty as everything seems, I haven't had to deal with any broken or seized fasteners.  They sure loved them some fine threaded bolts, too.  Not a coarse thread to be found, anywhere.  Even seemingly trivial bracket mounting bolts are fine pitch.

I wanted to replace the dampers, but there's 4 of them, and the cheapest replacements I could find were $130 each.  Aaaaand...nope.  Not gonna drop 5 bills on rear shocks.  I'll figure out how to rebush the mounting points and stick them back in.  With the mounting bolts loosened it'll be easier to replace them later, if that ever becomes the long pole in the handling tent.  

jr02518
jr02518 HalfDork
8/23/22 9:54 a.m.

Welcome to British Standard, Whitworth Threads.  Thread pitch and ramp angle, got to love it.  

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/23/22 10:52 a.m.
jr02518 said:

Welcome to British Standard, Whitworth Threads.  Thread pitch and ramp angle, got to love it.  

Unclear when the Brits moved away from Whitworth.  All the fasterner bolt heads & nuts I've encountered thus far seem to fit standard tools just fine.  But, I'm not sure about the threads.

Trent
Trent PowerDork
8/23/22 10:52 a.m.

In reply to jr02518 :

By 66 the only BSF/BSC (colloquially known as Whitworth) threads should be in the carburetors.  It will be all SAE Fine thread.

wspohn
wspohn SuperDork
8/23/22 11:01 a.m.

Trent is right on the threading issue.

On the Dunlop brakes, the later versions were improved. Early one sandwiched the brake caliper seals between the brass piston and an alloy retainer plate using screws and star washers.  I had a spring washer crack on the rear caliper of my race car (MGA Twin Cam)  under hard braking on the longest straight, and the little screw dropped out behind the caliper piston and kept the brake on when I let off - result = backward spin into edge of Armco and a fair rate of knots.

Either replace the caliper pistons with those from a later Jag (they had the retaining plate swaged to the piston or work out another foolproof way to not repeat my experience.

BTW, while you can liner the caliper halves I have heard of leakage happening. I had mine hard chromed and ground to size.

 

 

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/23/22 11:48 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:
jr02518 said:

Welcome to British Standard, Whitworth Threads.  Thread pitch and ramp angle, got to love it.  

Unclear when the Brits moved away from Whitworth.  All the fasterner bolt heads & nuts I've encountered thus far seem to fit standard tools just fine.  But, I'm not sure about the threads.

Trent is correct,  threads are SAE. 

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/23/22 11:54 a.m.

In reply to wspohn :

I worked my 1958 XK150 and the pistons were all the same as later ones.  
   I remember doing the brakes on a 1955 D type and it too used the later style pistons. ( but no assurance they hadn't been changed before). 
  Is it possible that was only a a MG thing?  ( no, I've never done the brakes on a Twin Cam ) 

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/23/22 12:10 p.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:

Where we started last night. 

And where we punched the time clock to come in. 

The half shafts had to come off to remove the rotors, and in doing so I noted the grease fitting on the passenger side inner u joint had broken off. That u joint, unsurprisingly, also had a bit of a stickiness to it. So I'm getting a new u joint there. The other 3 seemed to work fine, with no slop. All the suspension articulations seem to work ok, too. Everything seems to have been well greased, at least. 

The hub assemblies had to come off to remove the trailing arms, as I'd noted above.  This was the assembly I couldn't figure out how Coventry had put together.  

I am keeping track of shims and such, to make sure it all goes back together the same way.  Jaguar sure loved their shims.  Luckily, as rusty as everything seems, I haven't had to deal with any broken or seized fasteners.  They sure loved them some fine threaded bolts, too.  Not a coarse thread to be found, anywhere.  Even seemingly trivial bracket mounting bolts are fine pitch.

I wanted to replace the dampers, but there's 4 of them, and the cheapest replacements I could find were $130 each.  Aaaaand...nope.  Not gonna drop 5 bills on rear shocks.  I'll figure out how to rebush the mounting points and stick them back in.  With the mounting bolts loosened it'll be easier to replace them later, if that ever becomes the long pole in the handling tent.  

The U joint is standard item. You can get it locally or cheaper at Rock Auto.   Check Rock auto on the shocks.  But you're welcome to my shocks if you want them.  
    My experiance?   You've got a better than80% chance they are still working. 

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/23/22 12:18 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

But of trivia. Late in the 1950's when they were dreaming up the IRS  one engineer ( sorry his name escapes me )  spent a weekend dreaming up the IRS  He was given a £100 bonus for his efforts.   Jaguar used it that way  from 1961- 1992 then they removed one shock on each side. And continued to use it for another decade.  

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/24/22 9:23 a.m.

I did see Rock Auto sells the u joints, it's a standard Dana size. They do not sell the dampers, though. Biggest issue with mine is the rubber bushings at the ends are pretty well deformed. But I can probably find replacements for those. Or just chuck up a bit of brass in the old lathe and spin some out, right?  devil

Got the old u joint pressed out last night and moved to the trailing arm bushings. After finding a perfectly sized press piece (a cast iron caster wheel from a set of dollies) I tried pressing them out. No go. 20 tons, nothing. I gave up and came in. After some reflection, I think I can cut the old bushings out by slicing, carefully, the press ring, and driving them out. Then hone the inside of the trailing arm and the new ones should press in easily. 

 

Trent
Trent PowerDork
8/24/22 10:33 a.m.

Every time I see this thread title the “You think you hate it now, but wait ’til you drive it.” scene from Vacation springs to mind

 

Working on swapping a 700R4 into one right now to replace the dying, orphaned 2 speed auto it came with.

Going with the Jag 4 speed was an option but I don't think rowing the gears in a big saloon have added any driver engagement. They are meant for floating, bathed in wood and leather luxury. 

Dirtydog (Forum Supporter)
Dirtydog (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand Dork
8/24/22 10:45 a.m.

There's a number of reasons I went with a later model Jaguar.  One big one is they are a bit more conventional on maintenance.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/24/22 12:49 p.m.
Dirtydog (Forum Supporter) said:

There's a number of reasons I went with a later model Jaguar.  One big one is they are a bit more conventional on maintenance.

That's kindof true about any car, though.  If you want the style of the older car, you have to accept the maintenance.  Or pay to have it resto-modded.

On the manual transmission, mine is a 4 speed with the electronic overdrive.  It's quite enjoyable hustling this 4 door sedan around, grabbing gears.  Or engage the OD and burble along on the highway.  A big part of the reason I bought this car was the fact that it was a manual.  I doubt I'd have jumped on a slushbox Jag saloon with any enthusiasm.  

wspohn
wspohn SuperDork
8/24/22 1:16 p.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to wspohn :

I worked my 1958 XK150 and the pistons were all the same as later ones.  
   I remember doing the brakes on a 1955 D type and it too used the later style pistons. ( but no assurance they hadn't been changed before). 
  Is it possible that was only a a MG thing?  ( no, I've never done the brakes on a Twin Cam ) 

The disc brake calipers on the Jags started out as round puck pads and you had to pull the calipers to replace them.

They went to the more sensible square puck pads which were removable without disturbing the calipers fairly quickly and the only other significant change after that was in the design of the seal retainment.  They ditched the plate held to the piston by screws, and went to the swaged back plate on the piston. The Twin Cams never got that - I believe that it came into production part way through the Mk 2 period in the mid 1960s. While I have all the MG parts books I don't have the Jag books so I cant verify a change point.  I happened to have  spare Jag Mk 2 rear end in my parts pile at the time and pulled the updated pistons out of that.

The hard parts to find were the front brakes stuff for the Mk 9 - they only used them on that model Jag, a Face Vega and maybe a Ferrari.  Used an S703 pad rather than the smaller S702 pad of all the other cars.

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 UberDork
8/24/22 1:33 p.m.

The Apple Hydraulics folks are old racing friends of mine. Good people.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
8/24/22 1:43 p.m.
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

amazing amazing, or amazing you gave conflicting recommendations?

i read Frenchy's instructions as "drop rear to replace calipers and rotors, but do not remove the cage from the rear after you drop it."

Me too. 

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/24/22 1:55 p.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:
Dirtydog (Forum Supporter) said:

There's a number of reasons I went with a later model Jaguar.  One big one is they are a bit more conventional on maintenance.

That's kindof true about any car, though.  If you want the style of the older car, you have to accept the maintenance.  Or pay to have it resto-modded.

On the manual transmission, mine is a 4 speed with the electronic overdrive.  It's quite enjoyable hustling this 4 door sedan around, grabbing gears.  Or engage the OD and burble along on the highway.  A big part of the reason I bought this car was the fact that it was a manual.  I doubt I'd have jumped on a slushbox Jag saloon with any enthusiasm.  

I agree completely with you. That Borg Warner automatic  was originally designed to replace the Buick dyno flow  first used in the 1930's  Buick didn't want it so I think Oldsmobile  took it. Then they  sold it to Studebaker? Packard?   And Jaguar.    In 1977 Jaguar switched to the Turbo 400.  
The Borg Warner had a 4% slippage rate while the Turbo 400 was 2%. 

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