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preach (dudeist priest)
preach (dudeist priest) GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/3/22 1:08 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

I concur.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
5/3/22 1:32 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to docwyte :

I get it.  If you want a 911, you want a 911.  Being an honest car guy though, from the drivers seat a 996 or 997 offers nothing over a 987 unless you have a turbo or a GT3.  At one time, I was hunting down 996 GT3s, but that ship has sailed and I'd prefer to play in the dirt.  

Couldn't agree more. If you want a 911, only a 911 will do subjectively.

Objectively, unless you are getting into a 911 that has an unobtainable version in mid-engine form (GT3RS, Turbo S, etc) then the mid-engine car is better. A Cayman S is faster and drives better than the base 911 with the same engine, a Cayman GTS > same engine 911 S, etc, etc, all the way up to the new Cayman GT4 RS is better than the same engine 911 GT3. 

Yes a 997 is going to be better than a 986, that's not apples to apples. But that 997 money will absolutely be better spent on a 987 S, objectively.

There's a reason every other supercar on earth is mid-engined (and I point out again, including Porsche's own 911 RSR race cars).

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
5/3/22 1:53 p.m.

I admit, I got lucky. I started looking at 993s when they were $25k but then decided to spend a bit less on a G-body. 

Are there faster cars? Of course. But there’s something about the driving experience: the sounds, the smells, the sensations. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
5/3/22 2:18 p.m.
Javelin said:

A Cayman S is faster and drives better than the base 911 with the same engine, a Cayman GTS > same engine 911 S, etc, etc, all the way up to the new Cayman GT4 RS is better than the same engine 911 GT3. 

None of that is right. Again, "drives better" is subjective. The rest is factually wrong. The 911s are all as fast or faster than the "comparable" cayman. The only time the normal caymans and 911s have shared an engine was the base 991 and 981S, and the 911 version was tuned up such that it's at least as fast as the cayman. The GT4RS did finally get the same engine as the GT3 but it's still tuned softer and is slower in both straight line speed and lap times.

iammclovin804
iammclovin804 New Reader
5/3/22 2:34 p.m.

I bought this guy for $10.5k in 2016 and sold it for $8500 in 2019. 2000 Carrera4 6 speed. I kick myself nearly every day for that. 

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
5/3/22 3:09 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Well besides the obvious back seat, rear engine dynamics and hard top coupe you get from a 996/997 vs a 986.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not hating on 986's but you have to be a convertible guy to want one.

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish)
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) PowerDork
5/3/22 6:15 p.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

Thanks to you bastards, my wife and I are P shopping again.  We have a 996 and 986.  Given how similar the two are, we're considering selling the 986 and picking up a clean 944 just for fun. 

Ya'll suck...laugh

That would not be my choice.  968 or Cayman.

Interesting.  I don't think we'd trade our 986 for a Cayman.  Too similar.  She likes old school P cars.  944, 924S, 914.  Don't want to go down the hell hole rust issues with 914s.  

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/3/22 10:13 p.m.

In reply to dps214 :

Yes the 911 is faster because it has a better exhaust system, air filter routing and it has more displacement.  At your local autocross that will likely be canceled out by the better balance of the mid engined cars.  Yes my 911 was faster than (996) than my 986.  It wasn't double the price faster or double the price better in anyway though.  The 997 and 987 will have the same will have the same issue.  For my money I want a 987 Cayman S all day long every day.  It's the purest sports car of them all and will put more smiles on most faces for the money any day of the week.  If I ever get another Porsche it will be a Cayman S unless I end up with GT3, GT2 or turbo money someday (which is doubtful).  If you drive a Cayman GTS and can afford it, you will buy it on the spot. 

The average driver will almost always be more comfortable at speed in the Cayman than a 911.  Yes the new watercooled 911s handle way better than their aircooled brothers, but it's nothing like the mid engined cars.  The steering feel is almost the same in all of them but the rear end behaves much better in the mid engined cars under all conditions except maybe hard acceleration where the rear weight bias really helps grip. 

All of that said, I've had way more fun with my crapy Subaru on dirt than I ever did with any Porsche or other car I have owned on asphalt or concrete.  Everyone has their preferences, and I've found mine.  No amount of badmouthing Subaru on this forum will change that for me.  The preference things reminds me of Javelin's Corvette experience and mine both.  I will probably never buy another Vette either. 

If you want the 911, you want the 911.  I get that.  If you want a Porsche you want a Porsche.  If you like the old ones, you like the old ones. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
5/3/22 11:29 p.m.

Yeah, that's why I combined both and had a lot of fun on dirt with a cheap Porsche. Best of all the worlds there.

ClearWaterMS
ClearWaterMS New Reader
5/4/22 10:31 a.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to dps214 :

Yes the 911 is faster because it has a better exhaust system, air filter routing and it has more displacement.  At your local autocross that will likely be canceled out by the better balance of the mid engined cars.  Yes my 911 was faster than (996) than my 986.  It wasn't double the price faster or double the price better in anyway though.  The 997 and 987 will have the same will have the same issue.  For my money I want a 987 Cayman S all day long every day.  It's the purest sports car of them all and will put more smiles on most faces for the money any day of the week.  If I ever get another Porsche it will be a Cayman S unless I end up with GT3, GT2 or turbo money someday (which is doubtful).  If you drive a Cayman GTS and can afford it, you will buy it on the spot. 

The average driver will almost always be more comfortable at speed in the Cayman than a 911.  Yes the new watercooled 911s handle way better than their aircooled brothers, but it's nothing like the mid engined cars.  The steering feel is almost the same in all of them but the rear end behaves much better in the mid engined cars under all conditions except maybe hard acceleration where the rear weight bias really helps grip. 

All of that said, I've had way more fun with my crapy Subaru on dirt than I ever did with any Porsche or other car I have owned on asphalt or concrete.  Everyone has their preferences, and I've found mine.  No amount of badmouthing Subaru on this forum will change that for me.  The preference things reminds me of Javelin's Corvette experience and mine both.  I will probably never buy another Vette either. 

If you want the 911, you want the 911.  I get that.  If you want a Porsche you want a Porsche.  If you like the old ones, you like the old ones. 

is all Porsche buying similar to my experience up to this point?  I started looking at a 996 drove it and passed thinking the 997.1 was enough better to justify the price increase but then look and say well if the 997.1 is 45'ish a 997.2 is only around 55'ish and a 981S Cayman's are in between at around 50k...  

I feel like what started as a 30k 4th car has turned into a 55k car after having only driven one of them for 10 minutes...  

Right now I am pretty sure if I move forward and get one; it will be either a 997.2 or a 981S.  

dps214
dps214 Dork
5/4/22 10:40 a.m.

Basically yes, especially now with the older model values inflated such that everything is bunched closer together in price. A friend took a test drive in our 981S at last weekend's autocross and is now trying to find an allocation on a 718GT4 because -if he can find one at msrp- it's only $20k more than the 981 GTS that he originally wanted. My 981S was supposed to be a 987.2S but I just couldn't bring myself to have a car in a boring color and found a 981S that was almost exactly what I wanted and only slightly beyond the upper limit of my budget. Another friend nearly ordered a 718GTS ~3 years ago and then ended up with a 997.2 GT3 instead.

gencollon
gencollon New Reader
5/4/22 9:32 p.m.

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

You can do that with a bunch of cars though. There's always a base model, and a slightly better one, then the next model up is only a little more, and oh if I'm gonna spend that much money, I might as well buy the base version of this other platform instead.

Like the Elise, Exige and Evora

 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
5/4/22 10:14 p.m.

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

Are you in MS?  I'm moving there....

Yes Porsche buyer and owners usually go that way.  There is always a clear upgrade, or two, or three.....   and then once you finally get your GT3 you miss the comfort of the turbo or GTS you used to own.  Honestly, I think the S models with certain options make the best cars if you can only have one....  

ClearWaterMS
ClearWaterMS New Reader
5/5/22 9:25 a.m.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to ClearWaterMS :

Are you in MS?  I'm moving there....

Yes Porsche buyer and owners usually go that way.  There is always a clear upgrade, or two, or three.....   and then once you finally get your GT3 you miss the comfort of the turbo or GTS you used to own.  Honestly, I think the S models with certain options make the best cars if you can only have one....  

no, ClearWaterMS at this point is just a name I have used for a long long time.  WHen I was a kid and into modifying import cars we had a friend who had a business license in the state of illinois called Clearwater fishtanks and we used his business license to get a resellers discount on performance parts from places like NOPI (if you remember them) and other OEM's.  We called it ClearWater motorsports but it never took off and the name just stuck. 

I actually live in Illinois.  I do work for MS though (Microsoft)

infinitenexus
infinitenexus Dork
5/10/22 8:05 a.m.

I checked the car out again and talked with the salesman. It's really in flawless condition for something that's 21 years old, but after sales tax and all it comes out to $36K. I just don't think I'm comfortable paying that much for a 996 yet. I'm going to wait a bit and see if a better deal comes around.

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones Dork
5/10/22 8:10 a.m.

I would think one of the issues with older cars getting more expensive would be paying for them. It's much easier to finance something newer vs cash for something 20 years old for most people. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
5/10/22 8:37 a.m.
Steve_Jones said:

I would think one of the issues with older cars getting more expensive would be paying for them. It's much easier to finance something newer vs cash for something 20 years old for most people. 

That was one of the things that sold me on my 981 versus the 987.2 I was originally shopping for. That few years newer meant even buying private party I got a loan at a better rate than I could have gotten under any circumstance on the older car.

Fupdiggity (Forum Supporter)
Fupdiggity (Forum Supporter) Reader
5/10/22 9:28 a.m.

I'm not sure if the market is cooling or the general surge has caused everyone to inflate their asking price, but it seems like the auction prices are consistently better than most advertised asking prices. Of course we can't see what those are actually selling for, but again, a relatively good price on BAT recently for another 996, in a beautiful color to boot.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1999-porsche-911-carrera-287/

zenith blue, 51k miles, factory LSD, mmmm

infinitenexus
infinitenexus Dork
5/10/22 10:46 a.m.
Steve_Jones said:

I would think one of the issues with older cars getting more expensive would be paying for them. It's much easier to finance something newer vs cash for something 20 years old for most people. 

That's also one of the reasons I'm shying away from this car at the moment. Being 21 years old, my interest rate will be higher and even a credit union will often only loan part of the amount. I figure being patient is the best option, here. I'll get my dream car one day.

ClearWaterMS
ClearWaterMS New Reader
5/10/22 1:00 p.m.
infinitenexus said:
Steve_Jones said:

I would think one of the issues with older cars getting more expensive would be paying for them. It's much easier to finance something newer vs cash for something 20 years old for most people. 

That's also one of the reasons I'm shying away from this car at the moment. Being 21 years old, my interest rate will be higher and even a credit union will often only loan part of the amount. I figure being patient is the best option, here. I'll get my dream car one day.

Haggerty value tools show that all collector cars are up approx. 20% since this time last year.  While Porsche's have been appreciating in value, I think that 20% is likely a bubble.  That means that 996 cars should be mid 20's.  

Additionally for around the same price as a 997 I can get a Lotus Evora and i'm starting to wonder what is a dumber decision a Porsche with IMS/bore scoring issues or a Lotus that has a toyota engine.  

 

SivaSuryaKshatriya
SivaSuryaKshatriya New Reader
5/10/22 4:19 p.m.

The end of the ICE era is fast approaching and I think people are starting to see the writing on the wall. Almost all desirable ICE sports cars have gone up - the C6Z for example went from $33-35k to a solid $45-50k in my area.

I don't forsee these prices going down unless there's some kind of massive recession, in which case we'll have other problems. Long term though, they're only going to get more expensive. If there's a used car you've always wanted, I say you should just bite the bullet and buy it within the next few years.

grover
grover GRM+ Memberand Dork
5/10/22 10:46 p.m.

In reply to SivaSuryaKshatriya :

I bet we see at least a 10% price reduction over the next 12 months for several reasons. 
- interest rates are up 

- there isn't stimulus money being added to the economy 

- gas prices are up 

- market being down balances out high home prices 

- supply chain issues are easing- that reduces the backlog at the front of the market- new cars  

it's a clear bubble. It's already being reported that credit card balances are rising- we've seen a historic period of personal liquidity that directly led to a car price bubble. 

ClearWaterMS
ClearWaterMS Reader
5/11/22 8:40 a.m.
grover said:

In reply to SivaSuryaKshatriya :

I bet we see at least a 10% price reduction over the next 12 months for several reasons. 
- interest rates are up 

- there isn't stimulus money being added to the economy 

- gas prices are up 

- market being down balances out high home prices 

- supply chain issues are easing- that reduces the backlog at the front of the market- new cars  

it's a clear bubble. It's already being reported that credit card balances are rising- we've seen a historic period of personal liquidity that directly led to a car price bubble. 

based on hagerty's value tools cars are up around 20% since last fall.  I am assuming that their tools lag the actual industry but I think it's pretty easy to say that the bubble will burst in approx. and we will return about 20% of value.

The bigger question is when; Porsche is reporting a two year wait for a new 992 and I have heard dealerships are taking deposits for 2024 allocations of Corvettes if you want something close to sticker.  But like you said with interest rates rising and the value of money plummeting without salaries adjusting i do think we will see a slow down in purchasing which will reduce demand allowing the supply chain to catch up.  

ClearWaterMS
ClearWaterMS Reader
5/11/22 8:48 a.m.
SivaSuryaKshatriya said:

If there's a used car you've always wanted, I say you should just bite the bullet and buy it within the next few years.

this is sage advice; you only live once.  Cars are not investments, measure the ROI in joy it brings you not in money it makes/costs you.  

dps214
dps214 Dork
5/11/22 8:57 a.m.
ClearWaterMS said:
SivaSuryaKshatriya said:

If there's a used car you've always wanted, I say you should just bite the bullet and buy it within the next few years.

this is sage advice; you only live once.  Cars are not investments, measure the ROI in joy it brings you not in money it makes/costs you.  

Resale value only matters if you plan to sell it.

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