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fanfoy
fanfoy Dork
1/13/15 7:58 a.m.
iadr wrote:
curtis73 wrote: Tow ratings on cars are 50% marketable BS and 50% manufacturers covering their arses. Take for example; the 4500-lb tow rating on a 96 Caprice with an LT1 and the 2.73 gears in a 7.5" rear axle. Upgrade to an Impala SS with an 8.5", stiffer springs and shocks, and 3.08s? Now you can only tow 3000. Complete market segment BS. In those two cases, its obvious that the ratings are bogus. Same car, better equipped, lower rating. However, they both have frames. Its quite possible that the Genesis has nothing but flimsy sheet metal back there and no suitable means to mount a hitch. I thought about putting a hitch on my wife's old Tercel because she wanted a 4x6 trailer with a tent on it to go camping. It would have weighed about 500 lbs tops. But I couldn't find ANY sheet metal under the trunk that was thicker than about 16 gauge. Zero structure to bolt a hitch to.
Nissan Xtrail (Canada/Mex only) is an example of no structure in the rear sheet metal. AFAIK, "they" do make an aftermarket hitch of some kind. The Impala is a clear example of low pro tires defining the max rating.

I'm guessing you guys aren't used to installing aftermarket hitches on unibody cars. Most simply use the four big bolts for the rear bumper rail to bolt it to the car. With that part of the structure being able to resist a 15 mph impact, it's usually plenty strong to hold a hitch.

car39
car39 HalfDork
1/13/15 9:53 a.m.

Young and foolish, I helped a friend move out of his apartment towing an open trailer with a 67 AMC Ambassador. If it fit on the trailer, it must be o.k. right? Fortunately everybody else had great reflexes when I ended up in the middle of downtown Springfield MA intersection with the brakes locked up, but the car not slowing. Not fun.

curtis73
curtis73 GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/13/15 10:04 a.m.
akamcfly wrote:
curtis73 wrote: Its quite possible that the Genesis has nothing but flimsy sheet metal back there and no suitable means to mount a hitch. I thought about putting a hitch on my wife's old Tercel because she wanted a 4x6 trailer with a tent on it to go camping. It would have weighed about 500 lbs tops. But I couldn't find ANY sheet metal under the trunk that was thicker than about 16 gauge. Zero structure to bolt a hitch to.
It's possible except the usual suspects all manufacture hitches for it. Most of them are rated for 3500lbs even. I have no aspirations of going anywhere near that weight.

Ah... I stand corrected.

I would look to the usual culprits that would hinder towing performance. RWD and torque are a good start. How beefy is the IRS? How big is the R&P? Good forged aluminum control arms? Stamped steel? Big ball joints?

Many things about a car's engineering (as you know) are designed for the target user. The IRS and drivetrain might be perfectly capable of handling the weight, or it could be like the 7.5" rear axle used in Camaros. Add sticky tires and it blows. You can put 800 hp in it and be fine... as long as you are still as limited on traction as you were before.

I would do some hard research into things like transmission, bearing sizes, etc before towing anything. Just like the camaro, if you increase the difference between torque and resistance, that's when things fail. For some vehicles, that's a huge margin. For others it can be the difference in 500 lbs in the trunk. Another good example is the Allison transmission in GM trucks. It is a wonderful piece of engineering that will handle large loads. But in the pickups it won't handle nearly as much as in (for instance) an Isuzu cab-over box truck. The reason is that Chevy made changes to the valve body and programming for the pickups so that it was a nice, smooth, fluffy-shifting transmission. A little valve body work and a reflash and you have a supremely competent HD transmission. Leave it stock and I would keep it below 10k towing.

As far as this car in specific, I don't know. If you can't find someone on the internet who has tried it and figured out what blows up first, maybe you're the guinea pig. It might just chew tires which is a cheap fix, or it might fry a 7-speed proprietary transmission made out of unobtanium. Which is my guess as to what goes first. Manufacturers are in such a race to make the newest 13-speed automatic to stay ahead of Mercedes that they are often just barely capable of handling the car alone.

You're right, though, it has the makings for a good light tow rig.

curtis73
curtis73 GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/13/15 10:08 a.m.
iadr wrote: The Impala is a clear example of low pro tires defining the max rating.

I agree in general, however the tires on my 17" Impala wheels have the same weight rating as the 15" on the caprice wagon. But you're right... lower profile tires do tend to have less ability to handle the heat with the acute flexing.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
1/13/15 10:56 a.m.

I agree with all the sentiments in this thread that lawyers have defined the tow ratings game, and that it sucks.

Doesn't change the fact that that is the world we live in.

I work for a company that has over 30 skilled construction workers who do not have licenses. They are grown men, who are perfectly capable of driving any vehicle. They drive daily on the jobsites.

But they DO NOT drive on the street. The liability is too great. Why? Lawyers. That is all.

So we pay licensed drivers to chauffeur them to construction sites all over the state, then they drive the rest of the day on the job sites, and are chauffeured home at the end of the day.

Does it suck? Yep.

You can drive whatever you want, and tow whatever you want. But the liability is yours. It's just the way the world works.

Does it suck? Yep.

curtis73
curtis73 GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/13/15 11:02 a.m.

^^ what he said.

curtis73
curtis73 GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/13/15 11:10 a.m.

I will add, though that in the sub-commercial realm, rarely does the legal stuff come into play. I used to regularly tow 2000 lbs with my 91 Beretta. It did fine, but it was double the tow rating. I got stopped a few times in a couple states, but no one asks. In the police's eyes, if it looks safe, it is. If it doesn't, it ain't. You could be towing 2000 lbs with a 3/4 ton pickup, but if its swaying or has a loose chain, they'll cite you. Or you can tow 8000 with an S10 and if it looks safe, they'll walk away without even asking for the trailer registration.

It doesn't even really apply to accidents. If you are towing 3500 lbs with a car rated to tow 3000, it doesn't even come into play in a courtroom. Even with all the weasley insurance companies trying to do anything to get out of paying a claim, its not commonly even talked about.

Suffice it to say, I have towed a crapload of trailers in my day for a crazy amount of miles in 48 states. It doesn't matter what it was, how overloaded it was, or what it looked like, I have never had even a single question asked about it. Cops are worried about turn signals, registration, insurance, and speed. It takes a really berkeleyed up combo for the law to be involved.

bluej
bluej SuperDork
1/13/15 11:40 a.m.

Just to ask again, has anyone had any good or bad experiences of, or know of anyone who has, gotten work done under warranty after towing with a vehicle that was not recommended for towing or was used to tow over recommended capacity?

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
1/13/15 11:47 a.m.
curtis73 wrote: Even with all the weasley insurance companies trying to do anything to get out of paying a claim, its not commonly even talked about.

Yet.

It's coming. I promise.

robertallinson619
robertallinson619
1/23/20 12:28 a.m.

In reply to bluej :

I was recommended to tow about 2000 lbs towing capacity. But somehow once, I had to tow more than the fixed number (it was I guess nearly 4000lbs that had to be loaded). I had Toyota Tacoma at that time which could bear nearly 5000lbs load. So I towed through it. Had a good experience with it. 

But I still prefer you to use the towing companies to get rid of the headache of towing.

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/23/20 12:35 a.m.

I know the Fiat 500 can tow.. the Abarth is not rated to. They sell a hitch, but it's used for hanging a bike rack off of the back of the car. 

ojannen
ojannen Reader
1/23/20 6:45 a.m.

I have been pulling a tire trailer with my Mini for the last few years: https://i.imgur.com/m8XZgWq.jpg It weights less than 500lbs.  Other than a somewhat increased braking distance and some bouncing over bumps, I don't notice it behind me.

What risks am I exposing myself to if I buy an e90 M3 with an official tow rating of 0lbs and tow my tire trailer with it?  As far as I can tell, it doesn't get a tow rating because you can't attach the hitch around a stock muffler.  The regular 3 series can handle a class 1 hitch without any problems.  What happens if I get in a wreck while towing a trailer?  Is there a possibility the insurance company will deny coverage?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ PowerDork
1/23/20 6:56 a.m.

In reply to ojannen :

Call and ask your insurance company.  I asked my previous company about towing with a GTO (not rated here, but the Holden equivalent is rated for a decent amount of weight) and got a hard "no, we won't cover anything that happens with a trailer attached to that car."

Sonic
Sonic UltraDork
1/23/20 7:48 a.m.

I've worked in insurance claims for 14 years.   Never once have I ever heard of any potential lack of coverage due to towing over capacity or anything even remotely in that realm.  Frankly, we cover stupidity on a daily basis, as stupidity is negligence, which is the legal cause of action against most people who cause crashes.  

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ PowerDork
1/23/20 8:22 a.m.

Sonic knows more than me so I defer to him- maybe don't tip off your insurer that you are aware of the lack of tow rating at all.

bluej
bluej UberDork
1/23/20 11:22 a.m.
robertallinson619 said:

In reply to bluej :

I was recommended to tow about 2000 lbs towing capacity. But somehow once, I had to tow more than the fixed number (it was I guess nearly 4000lbs that had to be loaded). I had Toyota Tacoma at that time which could bear nearly 5000lbs load. So I towed through it. Had a good experience with it. 

But I still prefer you to use the towing companies to get rid of the headache of towing.

I couldn't care less what you prefer I do, especially when you bump a (4) year old thread and don't even answer the question you quoted. You're going to need to convince us you're not a spammer, now, or you can tow your canoe right on outa here.

johnsnow
johnsnow New Reader
1/29/20 12:05 a.m.

5000lbs towing with a car is baseless and illogical. Consider this such weight towing with a Tacoma, it could hold up more than 7000lbs or Silverado chevrolet, both can do justice to the weight. But doing it via a car would end up the engine into mire!

03Panther
03Panther Reader
1/29/20 12:59 a.m.

In reply to bluej :

Since I'm just a good ol' southern boy, maybe my eng-lish ain't too good, But I don't really know what robertallinson619 said? Or what his point might be?

I think Sonic is on the right track. Just for God's sake, use a little bit of common sense (even thought that ain't all that common!) 

03Panther
03Panther Reader
1/29/20 1:04 a.m.

In reply to johnsnow :

I THINK I know what you are trying to say - although if so, its not very well thought out. There a plenty of cars that will tow 5000 lbs quite safely. A micro-car won't, but I hope most people are smart enough to know that.

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