weight of minimalist miata

RossD wrote: Alfa, I hope this turns into a build thread!

Right now it's a conceptual thread in my brain.

Although, I think I have figured that an early NA would be the easiest car. Getting my '95 back would be perfect- it had manual everything- so no need to remove a PS pump, power windows, and a lot of wiring overlays. I've even conceptualized some head light ideas- using some of the small projector headlights. Hard to really be old school with that, but it would still be pretty nice, I think.

If not that, the much hated white ones would be perfect- red seats and red door cards with black carpeting. Vinyl of course.

Before that- I really want to restore my '99.

Bringing this back for another hive thought..

Chassis.

Making a light car handle really well shouldn't be that hard.

But for a car as it's starting to turn out- should it be that good? Or would having a car you can toss around all back roads, have some very controllable sliding (or close to it) using some narrow 14" tires be a better idea?

Without a top or windows, or much of the interior, going above 55mph for a long time will be just abusive. So the concept of this car would be for back roads- all of which have 55 mph speed limits. So instead of making the ultimate car- do you have a car that's really a blast at those lower speeds, and you can not be too far over the limit with narrow tires and soft suspension?

Something like this could easily be set up anyway one would want.

Reading between the lines - are you defining "handle" as "grip"? In other words, if we swap those two terms in your post does it still mean the same thing?

If you're making a fun road car, you want good handling but low grip. I wouldn't necessarily choose 14" tires due to availability, but a 195/50-15 Yokohama S.Drive is cheap and fun.

No, I'm not using grip and handling as synonyms. Grip gives you a number, handling gives you a feeling.

Sure, you can lower the grip quickly and easily with tires. But my question is about the whole package- do I match a set of lower performance tires with a spring and shock set up that allows you to safely hit those limits in a very controllable fashion, or a CSP set up that will be jarring but low limits because of the tires?

So many wax poetically about how old cars feel- and I admit I do, too- preferring the challenge of my Alfa over the relative ease of a Miata. So do we lower the limits and match some of the softer feel or not?

Or would you rather have car that will rip around your favorite track ASAP?

(maybe something in between)

That's the choice.

Always go for good handling. On the street, that means the suspension needs the compliance to deal with a rough surface. Your CSP setup will handle poorly because you'll have trouble keeping the tires in contact with the road - I've tried it and it was a miserable car. Let the chassis breathe. It's not like you have to worry about locking the geometry down because it doesn't work, so use a suspension setup that maximizes travel and is supple enough to deal with Michigan roads. Which means pretty supple

I'm running a test Fox setup right now that would probably push your buttons - it's sharp without being punishing.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

So that's the question- do you (the general you, no Keith specifically) want awesome 225's mounted on 15" rims with a tight suspension that does give amazing feedback at a very high limit, or decent 185's on 14 that gives great feedback and control at a much lower limit?

That's the hypothetical I'm asking.

At the moment, I would lean toward almost stock springs with good matched shocks (that allow the car to be lowered)- as that's what would give ME a fun drive in the real world. Seems like stock rates with 300-500 less weight would be pretty sharp.

But that's just me.

If you were going to a pretty throw back simple car, would you want really high limits, or limits really well suited to the limited subset of driving you would do?

(and on that side- would you put chrome hub caps on steel wheels )

I've run several sets of wheels on my NA. 15x7 w/ S.Drives in 195/50, as Keith noted is a good setup that will allow you to toss the car around, and get it sliding at slower speeds, if that's what you want. My current 'street' setup is 15x8s w/ 205/50 ZIIs, which I really like. Really capable, but you can still provoke into a slide without going insanely fast. On the track, I run 15x9s w/ 225/45 NT01. I have yet to get them loose on the street, and probably never will.

For me the S.Drives weren't enough, the ZIIs are just about right. As a side note, I had a C6 'Vette for a while, and my NA Miata is much more fun on the street. The C6 had so much power, and such high limits that you were going dangerously fast before it got "fun", so I understand where you're coming from.

Oh, and I do have chrome hubcaps on steelies... on my tow rig...

In reply to Rodan:

Again, it's not about what my set up would be, but how would you want it to be set up.

I know what I want, and have a pretty good idea how to do it.

But does the trow back idea come with throw back handling limits?

I've even come up with some more basic and throwback ideas using these 90mm single front headlights-

Use that and something like the front end of the Triumph on CM's current cover. If I could TIG sheet aluminum, it could be really cool- modifying the hood and fenders to put a single light with a chrome ring around it.

I had fun on the street with my Sumitomo HTR-200. Nice tires that seemed to hold up and the grip seemed to be just right for being able to drift a touch or spin the tires ever so much leaving a stop sign. They were probably close to stock size.

alfadriver wrote: awesome 225's mounted on 15" rims with a tight suspension that does give amazing feedback at a very high limit

That's my choice. Then again, I used to drive my Miata on 800/500 XIDAs with 205/50 RComps (probably the same grip as the new 225/45/15s) on the street and I didn't find it offensive.

My BRZ is also on solid mounts/camber plates, stiff Ground Controls, and 255/35/18 Star Specs. And the Coilovers are getting ready to go back to revalved to run stiffer springs in a square setup vs the rear biased setup they are now.

YOU have to decide if you want high limits and less comfort, or lower limits and more comfort. We can't decide that for you.

z31maniac wrote: YOU have to decide if you want high limits and less comfort, or lower limits and more comfort. We can't decide that for you.

Yea, I know that answer.

I'm curious what others would do. Remember, at the moment, this is a very hypothetical car. Even with it keeping me up at night.

I'm having similar daydreams, with the exception that my minimalist car would be good for hooning around on dirt/gravel backroads. A stripped Miata, with a hardtop would suit me. The top would remain latched, rather than bolted on like a SpecMiata so it could be readily removed for paved road use. I want gravel rally car vs a sports car though. I've even contemplated putting a complete Miata suspension and drive train in an early Chevette,which led me to searching for Vauxhall HS/HSR body kits. It's a rabbit hole I tell you.

Zombie thread.  

So, Eric, did this ever progress beyond mental masturbation?  I periodically have the same day dream and found this thread while Googling the exact same thing.  No idea how I missed it originally.  

In reply to Adrian_Thompson :

No, just thinking.  I did consider a few cars locally, as they would fit into the idea.

But one consistent issue was how to style the headlights and look good.  I could not find 3" high and low beam combos, and being lazy, I also put a constraint to work within the boundary of the lights.  

Fun to reread. I've actually been working through some of the same mental exercises recently. Not necessarily minimum weight (or not compromises as a result), but one with a real throwback feel and look that doesn't appear to be tacked on.

Headlights would remain 7" round popups. They're classics in their own right. Easiest way to save weight there would probably be to replace the headlight covers, they're remarkably heavy.

Keith

What's your idea of what "throwback feel" is?  

I'm not sure how I would read that- the throwback cars that I have are very similar to Miata to start with.  My idea here would be more simple.  Like the clean interiors that were posted to look similar to older cars.

The feel thing is interesting.  

Older cars had much narrower tires, were less powerful, leaned more, etc.  This can end up in an interesting discussion.  The biggest difference between a Miata and a stock Alfa is far more lean and softer springs.

I've been re-pondering this lately, and wondering about feel vs limits (and whether that's an appropriate place to put a "vs"...) The train of thought was around having something very responsive and communicative, but wondering whether it was necessary to have low limits to enjoy it, and in fact perhaps being able to enjoy it more when I know that the car has plenty of grip in reserve when driven in a spirited-but-appropriate-for-public-roads manner.

And since I don't have room for a fleet, how can this be made to jibe with competitive (locally) autocrossability and usefulness for track days. Seems like 1 and 3 are compatible, since they're so much about feel, but getting #2 compatible with the others sounds like accepting some limits and thinking hard about really, really nice ($galactic) dampers. Ever since riding a motorcycle with Ohlins forks and seeing how little compromise there was across damper speeds, I've been desperate to get to a point with a car project where it was worth trying some really top-line dampers out. (And wondering how much apples/oranges there is in whether I'll see the same revelatory improvement in a car)

Clean interiors like you mentioned, but not ones with bare metal floors. Tactile push-pull switches instead of plastic rockers. Leather instead of plastic surfaces, and texture that comes from the materials instead of a mold. Purity and precision in the response of all controls. Concentrate on the points of contact with the car. Even things like using the non-airbag combo switches (never used in the US) as they have a much more precise, expensive feel with thin stalks. I've even figured out how to do the stereo without either handicapping it or jamming a modern head unit into a vintage style dash.

For the chassis, an amount of grip that's quick but something you can play with. Suspension that can move instead of crashing around.

I'd put some power in it, but would give up absolute power in exchange for feel - response, revviness, noise.

My street Miata has part of the interior touches, Project 707 did some of the same. Now combine that with the weight, sound and chassis of the Targa Miata in four cylinder guise and you're getting the idea. I have the actual recipe figured out right down to the wheel choice, but I'm not talking about it in public

alfadriver said:

In reply to Andy Neuman:

BTW, I'm not talking about a rat Miata- as it would still have to look really good- for instance, I like how this turned out-

 

This dash could use a combination of wood and leather that would look pretty cool.... 

Yes, the dash itself is a good start. No room for HVAC and there are no controls for anything useful and there's a little LCD hanging below it. But the concept is good. it's basically the same thing I have inside the Targa Miata with more finishing work.

In reply to Ransom :

It looks like a competitive STS Miata is just barely over 2000lbs, and since those are mostly base models(or have been converted to base), I suppose they at least somewhat qualify as “minimalist”?

In reply to Keith Tanner :

The dash layout like that gives you a lot of room- where the suede part is, later pictures show that can be cut out, and then you can put whatever insert there you want- say a body color metal to make it like the Alfa Spiders, wood for GTV or any British car etc. And incorporate a basic heater and vent system for HVAC (IIRC, there are some small hot rod set ups that will fit under the dash).  Heck, even a classic knob radio would go there well.

Basically, your ideas can be put all over that dash for the look the individual wants.  

Personally, since the theme of the body design is more British than Italian, I'd likely lean that direction.

Not sure how I'd handle the steering column, although.  Alfas had the some controls on the stalks, I think MG's had more switches.  I did see some guage inserts that would work with whatever theme anyone would choose.

Oh, I'm quite aware of how much room there is (and isn't) with that sort of dash as I have a car with one  The HVAC setup will be a challenge to hide given the packaging under the dash, but it can be done. Since that suede crash pad is essentially custom-built in the first place, poking holes in it or removing it isn't challenging. I've seen one dash with a mesh insert there that looked pretty good.

The individual can do whatever the hell he wants, I know what this individual wants to do.

I've never been happy with gauge cluster modifications, most of them look like they're trying too hard to be something they're not. On my car, I added slim chrome rings to the smaller gauges to match the big gauges - it's something subtle that most people don't catch, but it looks just a bit better. I have a list of all the controls I need, most of them are on the stalk but there are still a few (hazards, HVAC, cruise on/off) that would need to be housed somewhere. The column is easy, my MG has a Miata column in it and nobody's ever really noticed.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Are you building one for you?  It would be a fun build thread to read- like the one you did for a customer many years ago.  

Project 707 was a personal build for a friend, it was just highlighted on the FM site because it was so different. Same guy I'm building the XJ for now, actually.

I will quite probably build one for myself. Gotta get established in the new place and burn through a couple of other projects first. The drivetrain will require some real money, so I have to plan for it. I can start doing the interior first, though. I've got a lot of the parts.