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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 11:54 a.m.
Slippery said:

Somewhat off topic, but a question for the GRM guys.

IIRC, Honda gave you guys a Civic Si to play with and use at track days. Did they ever say anything about how the use in such a way would affect the warranty, or being that it was a loaner (I think?) that point never came up and was not discussed?

Press cars are a totally different beast. 

Fun story about that - I was at a shoot for NBC's "Proving Grounds". They had a BMW something, something I would have called an M3 10 years ago but is now something like an 235i M Sport Handling Package or some other finely specified model. They also had a Hyundai N Veloster. The shoot was at Chuckwalla which is in the middle of nowhere. 

They burned the rear tires off the BMW, because of course that's what you do with a powerful RWD press car at a track. Called BMW for some more, they said "Nothing in LA. If you drive to the dealer in Vegas they might have some, good luck". The team ended up swapping in a set of front tires from a Mustang also at the test to the BMW. Wrong spec and skinnier, but that's what they had to do in order to finish their test which included a timed lap.

Meanwhile, Hyundai had provided at least two spare sets of wheels and tires for their car because they know what happens when you send a Veloster N to a racetrack with a bunch of journalists and TV cameras. I had a spare set of rubber in the truck for the car I'd brought as well.

I've always wondered what Ford's press fleet manager thought when the car came back with a set of mismatched bald tires on the front.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/4/22 12:42 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
Slippery said:

Somewhat off topic, but a question for the GRM guys.

IIRC, Honda gave you guys a Civic Si to play with and use at track days. Did they ever say anything about how the use in such a way would affect the warranty, or being that it was a loaner (I think?) that point never came up and was not discussed?

Press cars are a totally different beast. 

Fun story about that - I was at a shoot for NBC's "Proving Grounds". They had a BMW something, something I would have called an M3 10 years ago but is now something like an 235i M Sport Handling Package or some other finely specified model. They also had a Hyundai N Veloster. The shoot was at Chuckwalla which is in the middle of nowhere. 

They burned the rear tires off the BMW, because of course that's what you do with a powerful RWD press car at a track. Called BMW for some more, they said "Nothing in LA. If you drive to the dealer in Vegas they might have some, good luck". The team ended up swapping in a set of front tires from a Mustang also at the test to the BMW. Wrong spec and skinnier, but that's what they had to do in order to finish their test which included a timed lap.

Meanwhile, Hyundai had provided at least two spare sets of wheels and tires for their car because they know what happens when you send a Veloster N to a racetrack with a bunch of journalists and TV cameras. I had a spare set of rubber in the truck for the car I'd brought as well.

I've always wondered what Ford's press fleet manager thought when the car came back with a set of mismatched bald tires on the front.

But their Si was a long-term vehicle though, wasn't it? 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 1:14 p.m.

Yes, my story was just Old Man Ramblings. I'll bet a press car doesn't have to worry about little things like "warranty" when it comes to use. 

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
8/4/22 1:23 p.m.

There's so much to know to stay reasonable, but two things do stand out to me.

  1. We'll never know now whether Toyota corporate would have made this go well without the Internet pitchfork brigade.
  2. The labyrinthine corporate structures that make finding someone who might probably be the party who can/should actually address your problem don't seem accidental.

Gulf States Toyota didn't say "we don't want to do it, but we're really not the last word." They said "no."

To the best of my understanding of course, noting that I don't have access to the communications.

How well does it work out for Toyota (or insert other mfr; this feels awfully parallel to a less-catastrophic Camaro saga on the forum a while back) that some significant number of people go to The Dealer for warranty work, the dealer denies the claim, and they don't know that there's actually a hydra's heads worth of contact points which might result in a better outcome if you can find them? And that the big, shiny building with the brand name in giant letters isn't actually an official representative of the manufacturer, though it seems clear they're happy to leave people with the notion that they are rather than pointing out the escalatory recourse?

LifeIsStout
LifeIsStout GRM+ Memberand Reader
8/4/22 1:26 p.m.

Looks like the story about the fix is getting out there to a larger audience.

 

https://jalopnik.com/toyota-will-fix-that-viral-gr86-but-the-bigger-warrant-1849365388

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 1:30 p.m.
dannyp84 said:
ztnedman1 said:

I have no dog in the fight other than I'm no Toyota cheerleader.

 

That being said, denying on the basis of motorsport(just the use not even modified), for a car that is advertised as motorsport, that comes with motorsport stuff upon purchase means they are in the wrong.

 

Mazda did it right with the ND1.

 

Companies spend how much in advertising?  How much has the GR marketing and advertising cost?  Part of that marketing is creating fans who then buy the boring stuff from you too.  We are told this segment is insignificant.  We are told the % of people who use it for intended use is insignificant.  It's so insignificant in fact, that apparently 11k is worth denying vs the MILLIONs spent to get that buyer into that position. 

 

The failure isn't the problem.  The denial isn't the problem.  It's why they denied it that is the problem.  

 

Rakem through the coals. 

 

And the nonsense about Toyota corporate not knowing... Seems like they should know that kind of E36 M3 in their biggest market by far.  That's the same excuse college coaches used and NFL coaches, and politicians...etc it doesn't matter if you didn't know, you should have known, so guilty by association.

 

 

What's the story with the ND1? As much as I like the 86/BRZ, I think the Subaru engine was a bit of a mistake. I wish they had updated the 3SGE to meet emission standards, or even just put a higher compression head on the 2.0 they use in the Corolla. My girlfriend's Mazda3 has a more joyful engine than the flat 4 in the 1st gen BRZ. I'm less sympathetic to the cost-sharing between two brands for a low volume sports car considering how good the ND2 Miata is, and how little it shares with the rest of Mazda's lineup. With that said, I'm glad these cars exist at all, but if I was looking to buy one I'd probably pad my budget for engine problems.

An inline four will not fit the chassis without raising the beltline significantly or using pyrotechnic hood hinges that basically total the car when they go off (IIRC $20k to replace on an R35) which would make the insurance on the cars insanely high.

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 1:38 p.m.
Keith Tanner 

I've always wondered what Ford's press fleet manager thought when the car came back with a set of mismatched bald tires on the front.

"Hey, got me Bill in chassis development, looks like we have an understeer problem"

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 1:41 p.m.
Jesse Ransom said:

There's so much to know to stay reasonable, but two things do stand out to me.

  1. We'll never know now whether Toyota corporate would have made this go well without the Internet pitchfork brigade.
  2. The labyrinthine corporate structures that make finding someone who might probably be the party who can/should actually address your problem don't seem accidental.

Gulf States Toyota didn't say "we don't want to do it, but we're really not the last word." They said "no."

To the best of my understanding of course, noting that I don't have access to the communications.

How well does it work out for Toyota (or insert other mfr; this feels awfully parallel to a less-catastrophic Camaro saga on the forum a while back) that some significant number of people go to The Dealer for warranty work, the dealer denies the claim, and they don't know that there's actually a hydra's heads worth of contact points which might result in a better outcome if you can find them? And that the big, shiny building with the brand name in giant letters isn't actually an official representative of the manufacturer, though it seems clear they're happy to leave people with the notion that they are rather than pointing out the escalatory recourse?

I have had some pointed conversations with my Dodge dealer about how, by preventing me from buying directly from Dodge, they are taking on the responsibility of dealing with me AND my problems. I was told not to upset the service writers any more by continuing to demand the year-old safety recall be performed.

gcmak
gcmak New Reader
8/4/22 1:47 p.m.

Appreciate the ongoing updates and follow-ups on this case and hopefully others too. A policy alignment from Toyota/GR for their cars globally might be helpful (or not depending on what policies they go forward with). This has woken one giant and may have woken others too.

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 1:53 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
dannyp84 said:
ztnedman1 said:

I have no dog in the fight other than I'm no Toyota cheerleader.

 

That being said, denying on the basis of motorsport(just the use not even modified), for a car that is advertised as motorsport, that comes with motorsport stuff upon purchase means they are in the wrong.

 

Mazda did it right with the ND1.

 

Companies spend how much in advertising?  How much has the GR marketing and advertising cost?  Part of that marketing is creating fans who then buy the boring stuff from you too.  We are told this segment is insignificant.  We are told the % of people who use it for intended use is insignificant.  It's so insignificant in fact, that apparently 11k is worth denying vs the MILLIONs spent to get that buyer into that position. 

 

The failure isn't the problem.  The denial isn't the problem.  It's why they denied it that is the problem.  

 

Rakem through the coals. 

 

And the nonsense about Toyota corporate not knowing... Seems like they should know that kind of E36 M3 in their biggest market by far.  That's the same excuse college coaches used and NFL coaches, and politicians...etc it doesn't matter if you didn't know, you should have known, so guilty by association.

 

 

What's the story with the ND1? As much as I like the 86/BRZ, I think the Subaru engine was a bit of a mistake. I wish they had updated the 3SGE to meet emission standards, or even just put a higher compression head on the 2.0 they use in the Corolla. My girlfriend's Mazda3 has a more joyful engine than the flat 4 in the 1st gen BRZ. I'm less sympathetic to the cost-sharing between two brands for a low volume sports car considering how good the ND2 Miata is, and how little it shares with the rest of Mazda's lineup. With that said, I'm glad these cars exist at all, but if I was looking to buy one I'd probably pad my budget for engine problems.

An inline four will not fit the chassis without raising the beltline significantly or using pyrotechnic hood hinges that basically total the car when they go off (IIRC $20k to replace on an R35) which would make the insurance on the cars insanely high.

 

A K20 fits just fine on the first gen ... ask captainawesome laugh and I doubt it runs the lean angle the 3S does.

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

BoxheadTim
BoxheadTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 1:56 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I have had some pointed conversations with my Dodge dealer about how, by preventing me from buying directly from Dodge, they are taking on the responsibility of dealing with me AND my problems. I was told not to upset the service writers any more by continuing to demand the year-old safety recall be performed.

Heh, if they would spend a portion of the money the dealer groups spend on lobbying on their customer service, they probably wouldn't have to spend that much on lobbying in the first place.

As someone who works in a customer facing role and has to have the occasional unpleasant discussion with a client, "think of the service writer" seems to be an odd policy to adopt on what at least some of us would consider a reasonable complaint.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 2:12 p.m.

In reply to Slippery :

Will it pass pedestrian crash standards?

Generally new cars have about 6"+ from hood to engine because of this.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 2:17 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

An inline four will not fit the chassis without raising the beltline significantly or using pyrotechnic hood hinges that basically total the car when they go off (IIRC $20k to replace on an R35) which would make the insurance on the cars insanely high.

Those of us paying insurance on these things would take that to mean that the insurance might go into the 5 digits...

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/4/22 2:21 p.m.
Slippery said:

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

Yeah, pay the same or more than a stock engine replacement to retrofit an engine with less performance. I mean the K20/24 probably leaves more space to slap a turbo on easily. But unless you're immediately going forced induction that swap makes zero sense.

engineered
engineered New Reader
8/4/22 2:22 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Slippery :

Will it pass pedestrian crash standards?

Generally new cars have about 6"+ from hood to engine because of this.

A power bulge in the hood should help with that.

engineered
engineered New Reader
8/4/22 2:23 p.m.
dps214 said:
Slippery said:

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

Yeah, pay the same or more than a stock engine replacement to retrofit an engine with less performance. I mean the K20/24 probably leaves more space to slap a turbo on easily. But unless you're immediately going forced induction that swap makes zero sense.

The Yaris GR 3cyl turbo would be an awesome engine in the GT68.

dannyp84
dannyp84 Reader
8/4/22 2:45 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I always imagined the engine leaned over like BMW has always done with their inline engines, it might even help with weight distribution too..

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 2:59 p.m.
dps214 said:
Slippery said:

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

Yeah, pay the same or more than a stock engine replacement to retrofit an engine with less performance. I mean the K20/24 probably leaves more space to slap a turbo on easily. But unless you're immediately going forced induction that swap makes zero sense.

A set of cams on a K20 will not only give you more hp than the stock engine, but most importantly, it will last. surprise

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 3:00 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to Slippery :

Will it pass pedestrian crash standards?

Generally new cars have about 6"+ from hood to engine because of this.

You are looking for excuses now. cheeky

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/4/22 3:02 p.m.
Slippery said:
dps214 said:
Slippery said:

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

Yeah, pay the same or more than a stock engine replacement to retrofit an engine with less performance. I mean the K20/24 probably leaves more space to slap a turbo on easily. But unless you're immediately going forced induction that swap makes zero sense.

A set of cams on a K20 will not only give you more hp than the stock engine, but most importantly, it will last. surprise

....about 80k miles before the chain jumps smiley

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 3:20 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:
Slippery said:
dps214 said:
Slippery said:

I am sure fitting one into a 2nd gen is already in the works. 

Yeah, pay the same or more than a stock engine replacement to retrofit an engine with less performance. I mean the K20/24 probably leaves more space to slap a turbo on easily. But unless you're immediately going forced induction that swap makes zero sense.

A set of cams on a K20 will not only give you more hp than the stock engine, but most importantly, it will last. surprise

....about 80k miles before the chain jumps smiley

I am pretty sure that is more than triple the life of any Subaru engine, lol. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/4/22 3:22 p.m.

Really, a K20 with cams will do >215 rwd whp with a pretty flat >175tq? I don't know much about those engines but that sounds like a lot for a basically stock 2 liter, especially the torque curve.

And the FA24 engines seem to be fine as long as you unclog the RTV. Heck, even with the pickup clogged they're still taking 5-10k miles of abuse to explode.

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/4/22 3:34 p.m.

In reply to dps214 :

You win. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/4/22 3:49 p.m.
dps214 said:

Really, a K20 with cams will do >215 rwd whp with a pretty flat >175tq? I don't know much about those engines but that sounds like a lot for a basically stock 2 liter, especially the torque curve.

And the FA24 engines seem to be fine as long as you unclog the RTV. Heck, even with the pickup clogged they're still taking 5-10k miles of abuse to explode.

The FA24's are putting down 210-220whp stock, they are very underrated from the factory at 228 crank. If they respond to a catless header and E85 the same as the first gens, you're talking about a legitimate 240-250whp engine with no torque dip. 

Of course, both of those would cause a power train claim to be denied. But if the RTV issue is cleared up for the '23 MY........not much to worry about. 

THIS IS PURE SPECULATION BEYOND THIS POINT: There has been some suggestions by guys who received their '22 allocations late is because of a 1-month "quality control hold" back in February and the RTV issue may have been why. There are plenty of pictures of guys showing an overabundance of RTV on the massive timing chain cover as well. 

But I haven't been able to figure out exactly what the hold was for. 

ztnedman1
ztnedman1 Reader
8/4/22 7:49 p.m.
GameboyRMH said:
JG Pasterjak said:

Another, more holistic question emerges from this incident that affects all of us, though: As car manufacturers lean more heavily in to using track performance as a marketing tool, how does this marketing model on the front end affect the service model on the back end? If you pitch a car as a track day monster, are you obliged to service it as such? That's a much bigger and more far reaching question that we'l be discussing in editorial meetings, and hopefully with manufacturer reps in the near future.

I would say that if you're marketing a car for track use, you should not be denying warranty coverage simply because the car was used on track (or closed parking lot). Unfortunately that seems to be the more common arrangement, oddly one rare exception to this rule is that Toyota in the UK has explicitly stated that track use will not void warranties on the GR86.

 

This.  Deny it because of abuse, not because it was used.  

I have zero issue with denying coverage due to money shift, high G loading from Hoosiers and aero, 20 minutes straight on the rev limiter doing a slideshow, etc... But not cool to deny JUST because it's been on track or similar.

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