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GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/5/22 5:59 p.m.
wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/5/22 6:10 p.m.

I have a question about this...

 

Where does the motorsport play a part in this failure?

 

I'm assuming that the high g forces and sudden change of direction shouldn't make the rtv come loose anymore than normal use at 20k.  Why would the rtv come loose just because of cornering or braking forces?

 

In other words...  what's going on that "motorsport activities" is showing this failure any more than just driving around?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/5/22 8:06 p.m.

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

Higher engine speeds cause oil pressure loss and damage.

 

More pragmatically, it is a convenient scapegoat.

 

I know not about management level, but on the technician level, a lot of dealer parts-hangers refuse to work on "fake Toyotas" like 86, iAs, and Supras.  It is different and therefore bad.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/5/22 8:11 p.m.

One factor may be that engines only used for street driving are better at surviving having their oil pickups clogged since less oil flow is required at lower RPMs.

No Time
No Time SuperDork
8/5/22 9:05 p.m.

Another reason motorsports may exacerbate the issue is the higher G's. 

The sloshing around on corners and during braking and acceleration could move the oil and RTV bits around more in the pan and get more of the RTV into suspension in the oil. That can increase the opportunity for RTV to get caught up in the pickup 

racerfink
racerfink UberDork
8/5/22 9:48 p.m.
wvumtnbkr said:

I have a question about this...

 

Where does the motorsport play a part in this failure?

 

I'm assuming that the high g forces and sudden change of direction shouldn't make the rtv come loose anymore than normal use at 20k.  Why would the rtv come loose just because of cornering or braking forces?

 

In other words...  what's going on that "motorsport activities" is showing this failure any more than just driving around?

I could see how higher temps associated with high performance driving might make the RTV (especially if it's not properly cured, or improperly manufactured) more prone to failure.  Any excess could "break off" easier.

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/6/22 2:55 a.m.
CyberEric said:

te72, that was my exact response. It's a Subaru engine, pretty much what I'd suspect.

Had my hands in wayyyy too many of them over the years, for a guy who has never owned one. Shame, they're fun to drive, but I suppose hand grenades are fun to throw, soooo... either one goes boom and all you hear is metal clanking.

 

Heh, "What do a Subaru engine and a hand grenade have in common? They both go boom and all you hear is metal clanking, and a bit of crying." =P

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/6/22 2:57 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Thank you for the clarification on the ND transmission fixes and longevity solutions. I'm having a lot of fun with the Exocet, but if something were to ever cause need of replacement for the NB, an ND is definitely toward the top of the list.

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/6/22 3:09 a.m.
GameboyRMH said:

One factor may be that engines only used for street driving are better at surviving having their oil pickups clogged since less oil flow is required at lower RPMs.

I'm curious how small the oil pickup tube's screen is. On JZ engines, it's roughly the size of the cross section of a baseball... it would take a LOT of RTV to clog one of those up to any meaningful level. Been a while since I dug into an EJ though, and have never seen the guts of an FA.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/6/22 9:52 a.m.
te72 said:
GameboyRMH said:

One factor may be that engines only used for street driving are better at surviving having their oil pickups clogged since less oil flow is required at lower RPMs.

I'm curious how small the oil pickup tube's screen is. On JZ engines, it's roughly the size of the cross section of a baseball... it would take a LOT of RTV to clog one of those up to any meaningful level. Been a while since I dug into an EJ though, and have never seen the guts of an FA.

If you watch the video Gameboy linked earlier on this page, it will give you a decent idea. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/6/22 10:57 a.m.

To me the fact that they're all making it to 4k+ miles suggests there's other factors required to blow it up. Running too long on the crappy stock oil, letting the level get a bit low and then running it hard, etc. The kinds of things that are somewhat reasonable to do and on their own wouldn't cause any issues, but when combined with a flow restriction, over time lead to a boom.  One guy I saw was doing track days on stock oil with no cooler and just keeping the level "between the marks"...yeah that's a recipe for problems even without any external factors.

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand UberDork
8/6/22 11:07 a.m.

I'm going to venture a guess that the dealership networks would rather keep slinging Sequoias and Camrys at a rate of 20:1 (with higher margins,) than deal with sports car enthusiasts.

There is a culture divide between the parent companies and distribution networks.  Always has been, except for maybe Mazda, who is the only bread and butter manufacturer that seems to embrace motorsports as part of their heritage.

I experienced this with the airbag recall on my Tundra.  The local dealer -does not- want to f with it, yet Toyota corporate is pursuing me relentlessly.  After getting stonewalled repeatedly, I talked to Toyota Corporate and told them that they can set up the appointment on my behalf. When I showed up, they told me it was going to take them at least 8 hours, despite having a one hour appointment.  

Traditional dealership networks SUCK.  There are few good dealers, but those are independent businesses, for better or worse.

I really like the GR86, but here we go again with Subaru engines doing their thing.  

I'd like to get a newer fun car that can do what my old E36 M3 can do one of these days.  155k miles and it would laugh at the thought of an HPDE or an Autox causing engine damage.  But it is also vintage-y and I would like to preserve it for that purpose as it continues to age.

I had little doubt that Toyota would warranty this and that the dealer wouldn't want to do it unless forced.  They're short-staffed and a warranty engine replacement consumes a bay that could have been used for 100 Camry oil changes and safety inspections.

The next reality to face is what the supply chain looks like?  And those engines will likely have the same root cause failure propensity.

 

 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/6/22 11:53 a.m.

In reply to dps214 :

If there is RTV in the pickups, blaming the victim is the wrong way to approch the problem. It may take 4k of driving to clog the pickup to the point where it becomes too clogged. 

alfadriver
alfadriver MegaDork
8/6/22 12:03 p.m.

In reply to dps214 :

It would be interesting to see the manual about the oil change. We've been listing normal use 10k intervals for some time now, including the original oil. Production engines haven't used "break in" oil for about 30 years now, once it was figured out how to break them in during manufacturing. 
 

And to further on Keith's point, blaming the owner to participate in events that someone in the corporation advertises as something capable, not something I see as applicable. 

dps214
dps214 Dork
8/6/22 12:10 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I'm not really blaming the owners. Like I said it's nothing that wouldn't be fine on a car that doesn't have the oil pickup clogged with rtv. We'll see if daily driver cars start blowing engines, but at least to my knowledge it's only been "hard use" cars that have failed so far so clearly there's some other factors involved. But that said 0w20 oil has no real place in a track car especially without a nice oil cooler. Neither does running it anything less than full, especially in an engine layout with a history of oiling issues.

te72
te72 HalfDork
8/6/22 12:17 p.m.
z31maniac said:
te72 said:
GameboyRMH said:

One factor may be that engines only used for street driving are better at surviving having their oil pickups clogged since less oil flow is required at lower RPMs.

I'm curious how small the oil pickup tube's screen is. On JZ engines, it's roughly the size of the cross section of a baseball... it would take a LOT of RTV to clog one of those up to any meaningful level. Been a while since I dug into an EJ though, and have never seen the guts of an FA.

If you watch the video Gameboy linked earlier on this page, it will give you a decent idea. 

That seems like a tiny screen inside that pickup tube, if I'm understanding what I am seeing correctly. On a JZ, the pickup tube has a large screen that is submerged in the oil at all times. I can see why the small tube would make sense, in theory it should help prevent the pickup from being uncovered in high-G maneuvers, but in practice... well, we see what can go wrong.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/6/22 12:43 p.m.

In reply to dps214 :

If there's enough flow to keep the engine lubricated at lower engine speeds, we may not see the commuter cars fail. I doubt this is a cumulative wear problem, more of a catastrophic one when oil demand exceeds the ability of the pickup to deliver. 

Which means that part of setting up a used '86 for track use in the future will always involve pulling the pan to check for obstructions. 

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
8/6/22 1:23 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to wvumtnbkr :

I know not about management level, but on the technician level, a lot of dealer parts-hangers refuse to work on "fake Toyotas" like 86, iAs, and Supras.  It is different and therefore bad.

I kinda understand.  The Subaru thing is probably not totally justified, but if I worked in a Toyota store, and somebody wanted me to work on their 335i, I would ask whether they wouldn't rather have somebody trained in German car repair...

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/6/22 1:26 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

The part that amuses me is that I have a friend who works at a Toyota dealership who bought a 335i as a used car tradein... and he loves working on the "fake Toyotas" because none of the other people will touch them, so it is like guaranteed money.

 

My opinion is it's all just cars, if you can't work on brand X given a modicum of information, you can't work on anything.  But then I have also met a lot of mouth-breather types from dealerships, who are brand cheerleaders who feel obligated to snark about cars other than Their Team.

I have so much FUN with those types smiley  I had a fun conversation just last week about how Chevy has never made a car with good handling.  Corvettes are trucks with fat tires so their limits are so high you cannot find out how bad their habits are, you see...

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
8/6/22 2:32 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Making fun of guys plastic pickup truck is the worst kind of bullying.  You should feel so awful...devil

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/6/22 2:45 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Oh no, he does not actually own a corvette, he has three trucks: a Silverado, a generic SUV, and a new Harley.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
8/6/22 7:24 p.m.
Tyler H said:

I'm going to venture a guess that the dealership networks would rather keep slinging Sequoias and Camrys at a rate of 20:1 (with higher margins,) than deal with sports car enthusiasts.

There is a culture divide between the parent companies and distribution networks.  Always has been, except for maybe Mazda, who is the only bread and butter manufacturer that seems to embrace motorsports as part of their heritage.

I experienced this with the airbag recall on my Tundra.  The local dealer -does not- want to f with it, yet Toyota corporate is pursuing me relentlessly.  After getting stonewalled repeatedly, I talked to Toyota Corporate and told them that they can set up the appointment on my behalf. When I showed up, they told me it was going to take them at least 8 hours, despite having a one hour appointment.  

Traditional dealership networks SUCK.  There are few good dealers, but those are independent businesses, for better or worse.

I really like the GR86, but here we go again with Subaru engines doing their thing.  

I'd like to get a newer fun car that can do what my old E36 M3 can do one of these days.  155k miles and it would laugh at the thought of an HPDE or an Autox causing engine damage.  But it is also vintage-y and I would like to preserve it for that purpose as it continues to age.

I had little doubt that Toyota would warranty this and that the dealer wouldn't want to do it unless forced.  They're short-staffed and a warranty engine replacement consumes a bay that could have been used for 100 Camry oil changes and safety inspections.

The next reality to face is what the supply chain looks like?  And those engines will likely have the same root cause failure propensity.

 

 

That sounds like a crappy dealership vs the entire company. 

I had to take my used 135i in just a couple months after buying it, used, and the BMW dealership made it super easy. The car new or used wasn't even purchased in this state, the dealer sent me off in an $80k X5 as loaner for 24 hours while they did the airbag swap.

Karacticus
Karacticus GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
8/6/22 7:46 p.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

The service experience difference between my local(ish) BMW dealers and the Toyota dealer where I bought my Supra is huge. 

The BMW dealers (the one 2 hours away was the only one that could work on my i8) would send a driver with a loaner to pick my car up for service, then do the same on return. The closer one is still the better part of an hour away and will do the same. 
 

It appears the local Toyota dealer won't send their shuttle to pick me up 25 minutes away-- their stated preference is 3-5 miles tops. The salesman did go the extra mile to pick up the i8 when it was traded in on the Supra, so ups to him on that. 
 

Maybe they really want you to buy a Lexus for the service experience. 

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
8/6/22 8:16 p.m.

Dealers used to search out warranty work.  It was guaranteed payment, all good.  Now, the manufacturers are offloading a bunch of their warranty costs onto the dealers.

Quick example, a Ford Escape throttle body has an extended warranty.  The throttle, which should probably retail for $4-500, is less than $50, because Ford only has to pay a percentage up from cost.  Dealer doesn't make as much money.  I have no specific examples, but the industry is full of dealer techs who repair, for example, Chev 4 cylinder timing chains and piston sets, and if they get really lucky and do that job several times a week, they might get within 20% of the flat rate time.  Dealer and tech both make less money than they should.

Not all the dealers fault.

johndej
johndej SuperDork
8/7/22 8:24 a.m.

In reply to dps214 :

I don't think its just motorsports participants blowing motors, they are just the ones who have had the warranty denied. 

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