So I still haven't completely given up on Porsche ownership.
911s prices are schizophrenic to me and that 356 I always wanted is way more than I would ever consider spending.
The one other Porsche I find interesting is the 968; so does anyone in the hive have experience with them? If so what's the owner ship experience like?
Isn't the 968 just a tarted-up 944S2 with a 6-speed manual?
In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :
That is my understanding but I find the 3.0 motor four intriguing.
If you don't like 911 prices you probably won't like 968 prices much better.
The 944S2 and 968 engines are very similar. The 968 has variocam and some internal differences but they're both twin cam 16v 3.0L engines.
In reply to Tom1200 :
As others have said, the 968 is very similar to the 944S2 including the 3.0L 4-cylinder. 968 pricing is also crazy high. If you like that platform, definitely give the S2 a look.
996's can still be found for a decent price, and 986's are downright cheap. 914's seem to be a value right now. I wouldn't discount a weird Porsche either (924 Turbo, 924S, early Cayenne S, 928, etc).
To me It was like they combined the 944 and the 928. I have had a bunch of various 944 cars and a 928s4 and driven a 968 and it was as if they took the worst of both cars and put them together. Bigger and fatter than a 944. Yet only got the power of a 4 cylinder? On a personal note I think the coups are ugly and the convertibles are just down right hideous. Where as I like the styling ques of the later 928 and the 951/944s2 very much with the standard 944 and 924s and the early 928 still being acceptable. But again this is purely subjective. I have a couple friends that think the 968 has the best styling of all the front engin water cooled Porsche's .
I love the 968 styling and have a huge soft spot for them, but they require quite a bit of regular maintenance (30k timing belts and so forth) and my understanding is that they're kind of the black licorice of front-engined Porsches. You are either all-in or it's not for you.
IIRC, Car and Driver knocked the 968 for poor refinement and teeth-shattering suspension in a shoot-out that included a C4 Corvette back in the 90's. I get the impression that largely sums up the 968 experience.
dean1484 said:To me It was like they combined the 944 and the 928. I have had a bunch of various 944 cars and a 928s4 and driven a 968 and it was as if they took the worst of both cars and put them together. Bigger and fatter than a 944. Yet only got the power of a 4 cylinder? On a personal note I think the coups are ugly and the convertibles are just down right hideous. Where as I like the styling ques of the later 928 and the 951/944s2 very much with the standard 944 and 924s and the early 928 still being acceptable. But again this is purely subjective. I have a couple friends that think the 968 has the best styling of all the front engin water cooled Porsche's .
I'm with you. I just can't abide the headlights of the 968. It loses the iconic popups of the 944/924 and replaces them with a 928-wannabe look. I do like the cleaned-up rear end, though. But I do recognize that they are the final, best evolution of that chassis. But even given that, the chassis, as good as it was, was a parts-bin special designed in the mid-70s, and by the 90s it was getting pretty out of date.
Part of the appeal for me is the weird/odd 928 wannabe lights.
If you're interested in a bit of history on that platform:
Basically the 968 was the dying gasp of that platform for good or bad.
Personally, the front end reminds me of that Morgan Aeromax that looks cross-eyed and poorly proportioned.
The engine is interesting, but pretty expensive/effort filled to maintain, even compared to the 951.
EDIT: If it were me, I'd look for a 928S4 and enjoy a better chassis and a motor that is WORTH the extra effort.
To each their own though and there's a butt for every seat, etc. if you like it, go for it. Considering prices/resale you'll likely make out just fine if you decide to sell it.
I still remember some of the German car rags quipping "what was the development goal? Another tractor?" when presented with a 3L four banger in the S2 and the 968.
IIRC all the 16V 944/968 engines have an odd timing belt arrangement - the timing belt drives one cam, and a very short chain then drives the other cam. Checking the chain, tensioners and pads is an important pads of the timing belt service because the tensioner pads and the chain can wear and result in valve salad if it isn't caught early enough.
I'm not a huge fan of them. Porsche didn't make very many of the coupes and prices for a good one are surprisingly high, like you can easily get a 996 C2 for the same amount. The 996 is a much better car btw.
So, the variocam pads wear out, the typical water pump, balance shaft belt/timing belt issues, torque tube bearing issues, clutch issues, rear hatch seal issues, oil pan gasket issues, motor mount issues. As always with any old(er) German car, you're buying the seller more than the car itself. Buy from an enthusiast who's kept up on all the maintenance and has the records to prove it.
Porsche didn't put the limited slip diff, sports seats and M030 sports suspension in very many of these, or if they did it was one option here, one option there vs all three. If you find a car with all three and a 6MT, expect to pay $$$
BoxheadTim said:I still remember some of the German car rags quipping "what was the development goal? Another tractor?" when presented with a 3L four banger in the S2 and the 968.
IIRC all the 16V 944/968 engines have an odd timing belt arrangement - the timing belt drives one cam, and a very short chain then drives the other cam. Checking the chain, tensioners and pads is an important pads of the timing belt service because the tensioner pads and the chain can wear and result in valve salad if it isn't caught early enough.
That's not a particularly odd setup. Lots of DOHC engines in the 80s had a single cam belt pulley, and the other cam was driven by a chain off of the belt driven one.
Where Porsche made it weird was the Variocam arrangement, where they used a chain with a lot of slack and a movable pair of rubbing blocks to alter the lobe separation angle.
VW did the same thing on the 1.8t engine, and I think also the belt driven V8s.
BoxheadTim said:IIRC all the 16V 944/968 engines have an odd timing belt arrangement - the timing belt drives one cam, and a very short chain then drives the other cam. Checking the chain, tensioners and pads is an important pads of the timing belt service because the tensioner pads and the chain can wear and result in valve salad if it isn't caught early enough.
I can't speak for the Variocam (isn't it VarioRam?) arrangement, but I've never heard of checking the chain and tensioner pad as frequently as the timing belt. I have a 944S (so, 16V, but no Vario) and I changed the pad shortly after I bought it more than a decade ago, but that was the first time it had ever been changed and it was still ok. Indeed, having it fail is bad, but it's not quite as maintenance dependant as the t-belt. Also, IIRC, the bolts that hold the valve cover on are very weird Porsche-only bolts that are 1-time use only, and like $15/ea. And that was 10+ years ago.
VarioCam is variable valve timing. VarioRam is variable intake runner length, which want ever applied to the 4 cylinder engines I don't think.
BoxheadTim said:IIRC all the 16V 944/968 engines have an odd timing belt arrangement - the timing belt drives one cam, and a very short chain then drives the other cam. Checking the chain, tensioners and pads is an important pads of the timing belt service because the tensioner pads and the chain can wear and result in valve salad if it isn't caught early enough.
But it's so unlike the Germans to make something needlessly complicated and failure-prone!
I like the 968 Coupe, hate the cabrio. Not sure about parts etc, they didn't make a lot of these cars.
In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
To be fair, they were trying to bung a variable cam timing system on something designed before VCT hubs were a thing.
dps214 said:VarioCam is variable valve timing. VarioRam is variable intake runner length, which want ever applied to the 4 cylinder engines I don't think.
My bad, I knew both existed and I knew the Cam one made more sense here, but :shrug:
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:BoxheadTim said:IIRC all the 16V 944/968 engines have an odd timing belt arrangement - the timing belt drives one cam, and a very short chain then drives the other cam. Checking the chain, tensioners and pads is an important pads of the timing belt service because the tensioner pads and the chain can wear and result in valve salad if it isn't caught early enough.
But it's so unlike the Germans to make something needlessly complicated and failure-prone!
This is what has kept me out of German cars.
So for fun I looked at 944 S2s and they do seem to be a better deal. The down side is it makes me want to put the 3.0 motor in a 924S.
Tom1200 said:Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:BoxheadTim said:IIRC all the 16V 944/968 engines have an odd timing belt arrangement - the timing belt drives one cam, and a very short chain then drives the other cam. Checking the chain, tensioners and pads is an important pads of the timing belt service because the tensioner pads and the chain can wear and result in valve salad if it isn't caught early enough.
But it's so unlike the Germans to make something needlessly complicated and failure-prone!
This is what has kept me out of German cars.
So for fun I looked at 944 S2s and they do seem to be a better deal. The down side is it makes me want to put the 3.0 motor in a 924S.
I am building a 3l motor in my basement. Not sure on what head I am going to use at the moment. Should make what ever car I put it in be a good all around driver.
Tom1200 said:Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:BoxheadTim said:IIRC all the 16V 944/968 engines have an odd timing belt arrangement - the timing belt drives one cam, and a very short chain then drives the other cam. Checking the chain, tensioners and pads is an important pads of the timing belt service because the tensioner pads and the chain can wear and result in valve salad if it isn't caught early enough.
But it's so unlike the Germans to make something needlessly complicated and failure-prone!
This is what has kept me out of German cars.
So for fun I looked at 944 S2s and they do seem to be a better deal. The down side is it makes me want to put the 3.0 motor in a 924S.
A friend has one. She really enjoys it. It's not an easy conversion, but it's certainly not impossible.
She basically lucked into it after a hunger member of the local group managed to roll his 968 converted 944 on a mountain road. So she worked a deal to buy the requisite parts from the wrecked car and proceeded to put it in her 924S. She also had a 928 for a while and enjoyed it, but maintaining two high tempered cars was a bit too much for her.
Theres another 924S converted to 968 power somewhere in Idaho because he showed up to an informal 924 gathering at the Portland Vintage Races. It was a really well executed swap and the organizer of the "event" was working on swapping their 924S over to 951 power. Not sure if that happened before he and his wife divorced. I suspect he still has it because he sold his built 931 instead.
I like the 968. They're pretty rare, so I think they will hold their value or appreciate. As other suggested, cast a wide net for 944S / S2 / 951, 968 and buy the one with the biggest 3-ring binder of receipts.
docwyte said:I'm not a huge fan of them. Porsche didn't make very many of the coupes and prices for a good one are surprisingly high, like you can easily get a 996 C2 for the same amount. The 996 is a much better car btw.
That's a very good point - I had a look over on PCA Mart and nice 968s that haven't been converted to race cars seem to be more expensive than entry level 996 C2s, and potentially getting close to 997.1s.
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:BoxheadTim said:IIRC all the 16V 944/968 engines have an odd timing belt arrangement - the timing belt drives one cam, and a very short chain then drives the other cam. Checking the chain, tensioners and pads is an important pads of the timing belt service because the tensioner pads and the chain can wear and result in valve salad if it isn't caught early enough.
But it's so unlike the Germans to make something needlessly complicated and failure-prone!
Oi! I resemble that remark.
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